What would it take for you to walk away from your mortgage?
Kenneth Harney, in his column Nation’s Housing, reports on an interesting study recently done by the University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business and Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management. This study took a look at homeowner’s attitudes toward mortgage defaults, specifically what’s come to be called “strategic” walkaways or decisions to bail on a mortgage due to purely economic reasons. The study found that “26% of the record number of home mortgage defaults across the country” were strategic – the homeowner had the ability to pay the mortgage but chose not to because the debt was greater than the asset. In other words, one in four of the current foreclosures is not due to hardship, but rather a lack of compunction.
My partner and mortgage rate expert, Brian Brady, has for some time now railed against the disappearance of moral compunction with regard to mortgages. His contention, as I understand it, is that moral compunction was priced into the model by lenders. There has historically been a stigma attached to not paying one’s debts, especially one’s home mortgage debt. This may or may not be true; I am no expert on the history of mortgage defaults in our nation, but it is certainly compelling. If accurate, the obvious question then becomes: to what degree did moral compunction affect rates and if it is indeed gone, how much higher will rates go?
There is no real mystery to how mortgage rates are priced. Mathematicians create models of mortgage “behavior” based on the 4 C’s: Capacity, Capital, Collateral and Credit. Of these four, Credit is really what we’re talking about here. Your income, your assets and the property’s value are theoretically objective but your credit… well, it’s not really credit that’s being measured here is it? It’s your Character; your likelihood to honor your debts, although lenders don’t like to say that because it has a snooty, superiority quality. Make no mistake though, character is most definitely being evaluated during the loan process. So the question seems to be: How do these mathematicians change the models to reflect a decrease (or abandonment) of moral compunction?
That sounds like a difficult question to answer but I think we can make it a little easier. If we read further into the study by co-authors Paola Sapienza, Luigi Zingales and Luigi Guiso we realize there is in fact a sliding scale of moral compunction practiced by American homeowners. (That last statement should be read with tongue in cheek; sliding scale and moral compunction are oxymoronic… you cannot be a little bit pregnant.) When asked, “81% of household heads said they believe intentional defaults on mortgages to be ‘morally wrong’.” Yet that number dwindles down as negative equity grows; by the time we get to negative equity of $200,000 fully one in three of these same homeowners would strategically default. Turns out the act they found “morally wrong” was actually just mis-priced. In other words, a great many homeowners find morality to be a good thing… taken in moderation.
Besides negative equity, the authors discovered a number of other factors that might influence a homeowner’s decision to strategically default, including age (younger were less likely to have a moral issue) and political affiliation (self-described political independents were also less likely to have a moral issue). But the other significant factor was familiarity. Not only did having a greater number of foreclosures within the local community increase the likelihood of a strategic foreclosure, but “owners who (knew) someone who defaulted strategically (were) 82% more likely to default themselves, compared with owners who (did) not know anyone in that situation.” As the old saying goes: “Familiarity breeds contempt.”
Earlier I wondered how mathematicians could change mortgage pricing models to reflect the empirical observation that making one’s mortgage payment has lost moral compunction. Based on this study, there is no moral component and probably never was. The first step then, is to remove the variable of morality altogether. The model should instead add two more C’s: Community and Contact.
- Community would account for the percentage of foreclosures within a borrower’s local area, probably using the same distance radius now used for comps in appraisals. Deriving a statistically significant factor for the likelihood of foreclosure based on the percentage of foreclosures within a Community should not be too difficult
- Contact would ascertain whether or not the borrower is acquainted with someone who has walked away from their mortgage. Again, if a borrower is 82% more likely to walk away from their mortgage based on knowing someone else who has done so, that’s a pretty important variable.
Does that last one sound a little intrusive to you? We ask similar questions of potential jurors in order to seat an impartial jury. Is accurately pricing mortgages for the housing industry somehow above such questions? Have you looked at a mortgage application lately? It is easily the most intrusive document ever created for general public use. Have a job? We want to talk to your employer. Got divorced? We want to look at the entire decree. Own your own business? You better just send me a copy of every schedule of your tax returns for the past two years. There is a list of over a dozen declarations you must attest to regarding law suits, bad debts, citizenship and so on. Another question regarding your familiarity with strategic foreclosures would hardly encumber the process.
Like it or not, this issue has to be resolved. Without a substantive discussion and response to strategic foreclosures, mortgage pricing models will have no choice but to account for foreclosures – both hardship and strategic – with across the board increases in rates. That is the easiest hedge against increased risk. But such indiscriminate rate hikes will only serve to diminish the housing industry and punish the vast majority who have acted responsibly. Does that sound moral to you?
J Messina says:
my vote: make your mortgage payment if you can because you signed a contract saying you would, because you care about your credit rating, and because you made a commitment to live there for the next 30 years. Why is that so hard to “get”? I am personally upside down on two properties and will continue honoring my promise to pay no matter what I have to give up to do so because I have children watching my example. Guess that makes me old, conservative, and snooty.
Time for homeowners to hunker down and honor the debt. When I hear people (with 200k in the bank) whine that they can’t get a modification (so they are going to walk) it makes me sick. Apparently thier mother didn’t teach them anything!
July 14, 2009 — 1:19 pm
Jeff Brown says:
Had a prospect last year tell me she’d live in her house till mortgage paid off, even though she was already upside down by over $100K ($325K loan/205K value).
She was raised in the midwest and said walking away was simply not an option on her menu. Talk about Old School.
July 14, 2009 — 1:38 pm
Michael Cook says:
Perhaps I am young and foolish, but doesnt a contract have two sides. There is the performance side, i.e. paying the mortgage, and the remedy side, i.e. foreclose on the property.
If no one judges the bank for excercising their remedy, why should you judge me for choosing not to perform? People who make smart financial decisions should not be look upon negatively. Businesses do it all the time. I work in Distressed Loans and it is not uncommon to get a call from an investor, letting us know that he/she will no longer be making payments. We then either choose to restructure or start the foreclosure process.
There are no hard feelings on either side, its just business. Why are consumers any different? As long as they dont whine about being foreclosed and leave on good terms, I think its not only respectable, but smart. Morality has nothing to do with it.
No one gets hurt. Banks made a bad loan and consumers made a bad purchase. Both people made poor decisions and should suffer equally. Consumers suffer by getting dinged on their credit and banks suffer by taking a crappy property back. Its lose/lose, no moral quandry there.
July 14, 2009 — 2:51 pm
Teri Lussier says:
I’d like to see these called something other that “strategic” and “hardship” foreclosures.
Michael-
>No one gets hurt.
The neighbors paying their loans get hurt. The community gets hurt.
July 14, 2009 — 3:06 pm
LEANN ANDERSON says:
WE ARE NOW SEEING THE PEOPLE WHOM DID NOT BUY AND SPECULATE AND PARTICIPATE IN THE GREED AND LEVERAGE HAYDAY WHICH ARE NEVER A GOOD THING, THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHOM HAVE LOST THERE JOBS AND LIVELY HOOD AND CANNOT SELL THERE PROPERTIES D/T THE FORECLOSURE AND SHORT SALES IN THERE COMMUNITIES DRIVING THE VALUES IN THE DIRT SO WHAT DO THEY DO?
LEANN
July 14, 2009 — 3:32 pm
Sean Purcell says:
Michael,
You are no doubt correct. A contract has two sides. That’s not the question here. The question is: have lenders been pricing loans based on the expectation that the borrower had some sort of moral compunction to pay.
Your implication is that this is a two-sided contract wherein each party has put up an equal “stake” (pymts vs. house and credit rating vs. REO)and each party can stay or leave as they see fit. Seems to me if that’s really true the lenders had better raise rates drastically and take on an entire layer of permanent property managers.
What would you say to this statement: it is understood that the lender does not actually want the house and the borrower does not actually want to lose the house and loan pricing is based on that assumption?
July 14, 2009 — 3:39 pm
Rob Chipman says:
Here in British Columbia we have recourse mortgages. That means that if you don’t pay the mortgage the lender can foreclose, and after that, if you still owe him money and he feels its worthwhile, he can go after your other assets. That makes keymail sort of tough and keeps character part of the 4 Cs.
July 14, 2009 — 4:20 pm
Don Reedy says:
Sean, love this question and the responses.
Scenario #1 – Client owes more than home is worth (say $200,000 more for example) BUT CAN MAKE THE PAYMENTS. Simple deal for me. In this case, payments should and must be made. I think we should consider altering the common law on recourse loans to include this type of situation as a fact pattern that would allow the bank to convert this to a recourse loan.
Scenario #2 – Client owes more than home is worth, BUT CANNOT MAKE THE PAYMENTS. This was the essence of loans that contained the compunction “C” you reference above. In this case, the homeowner and lender are on equal footing. Buyer can’t pay, so exiting is appropriate unless the lender wants to renegotiate.
I think the main scenario you address in your post is Scenario #1. In this case it is clear to me that the buyer is indeed a “bad guy”, and should be stopped in his/her tracks.
But “factoring in” a lack of moral character, particularly mathematically, doesn’t sit well with me. Let’s decide if we can ferret out these morally reprehensible buyers, and punish THEM. I oppose the continued passing along of punishment to the masses because of the soiled character of the minority.
Moral compunction has already begun it’s demise in America. You cannot, of course, legislate morality, compunction or even common sense.
July 14, 2009 — 4:59 pm
Teri L says:
>You cannot, of course, legislate morality, compunction or even common sense.
No you can’t, but it’s attempted all the time, isn’t it? Laws are written for this very purpose, every single day.
July 14, 2009 — 6:00 pm
Sean Purcell says:
J Messina – make your mortgage payment if you can because you signed a contract saying you would, because you care about your credit rating, and because you made a commitment to live there for the next 30 years
Playing devil’s advocate: you signed a contract (as Michael will point out) that said you would make payments in exchange for money up front. You didn’t promise to live there for 30 years or even pay for 30 years; simply to pay back the money based on a 30 year amortization. The lender, in turn, agreed to accept your home as collateral should you become unable to make that payment. Of course, this leads back to the question of whether or not there’s a difference between “unable to pay” and “not paying” (The devil’s in the details.)
July 14, 2009 — 6:37 pm
Sean Purcell says:
Jeff – “Old School”? I agree. But is it also “Lender School”? What I mean is: Do the lenders expect their borrowers are like your prospect or do they price based on Michael’s idea that it’s simply a contract? And should they begin modeling for the foreclosure parameters I discussed? I want your Old School wisdom, but I’m also looking for your no b.s. view of today’s market.
July 14, 2009 — 6:42 pm
Sean Purcell says:
Michael,
performance side, … and the remedy side Isn’t this more accurately the “performance side” and the “penalty side?” The bank does not want your home but will take it to back up their investment.
If no one judges the bank for exercising their remedy, why should you judge me for choosing not to perform? Ignoring the “Do not judge” aspect of this, we don’t judge a parent for taking away a child’s favorite toy when they make a bad decision (e.g. have tantrum), but we still judge the tantrum.
People who make smart financial decisions should not be looked upon negatively. Define “smart.” For instance, if I decide that robbing a bank has a small probability of getting caught but a large reward financially (pays for my mom’s medical procedure), have I made a “smart” financial decision? An economically well reasoned one? An ethical one?
As long as they don’t whine about being foreclosed and leave on good terms, I think it.s not only respectable, but smart. Morality has nothing to do with it. You may be making a very valid point. I simply ask if the lenders have priced with this idea in mind?
No one gets hurt. Teri answered this well. But I’ll add one other point: the banks are being hurt to a much greater degree than the homeowner. The homeowner walks away, waits a few years and starts again. The banks are taking massive losses on collateral give-backs they never expected. Unless your Goldman, your profits and, at least at the upper management level, your job is getting clobbered.
Its lose/lose, no moral quandary there This kind of begs the question doesn’t it?
July 14, 2009 — 7:00 pm
Jeff Brown says:
If the borrower who can still make payments as agreed and walks away from a non-recourse loan because of a fall in value, why can’t the lender raise a fixed rate of 4.5% to 7% if that’s the new market? Clearly the lender would be healthier if this was allowed. 🙂
Morally I tend to side with Brian on this one. Old School says you do what you agreed to do.
July 14, 2009 — 7:04 pm
Sean Purcell says:
Rob, are rates then lower in British Columbia compared with the US because the risk is lower, or are rates the same, in which case you’re suggesting the US lenders mistakenly assumed their risk was the same as those in BC?
July 14, 2009 — 7:04 pm
Ashlee says:
I say if you can afford to pay the mortgage, you should have to. Eventually the market has to come back around so we will get our equity back. Why screw up comps for people who really need to sell their houses. I have a neighbor who is doing it now just because he has decided he no longer wants to live here! Can you say credit nightmare!
July 14, 2009 — 7:31 pm
Rob Chipman says:
Sean:
I’m not sure what rates are like where you are, but I recently renewed for 5 years at 3.79%. Rates have recently jumped a little, so 5 yrs are between, say, 4.75% and 5%. You can check some Canadian rates here:
http://www.canadamortgage.com/RatesShow/ShowRates.cfm
There’s no question that low rates are keeping our market quite strong.
July 14, 2009 — 11:07 pm
Brian Brady says:
“You cannot, of course, legislate morality, compunction or even common sense.”
Of course you can; it’s a time-honored history in this country. Where shall I start?
Blue Laws prohibiting Sunday alcohol sales
Mandatory recycling
Gun control laws
Motorcycle helmet laws
seat belt laws
DUI laws
The Community Reinvestment Act
Legislation always stems from a moral belief system; the question is always WHICH moral belief system is being legislated? In this issue, legislation has reduced compunction by removing external barriers expected in the contract (taxing the unearned income the seller realizes from the short payoff). We legislated a moral belief system that undoes the contract Michael Cook cites…
…but I digress.
The issue Sean questions is the pricing model which assumes that the State won’t interfere with the contract and encourage this behavior. Should contract abiding borrowers be penalized (in future pricing models) for the actions of the intentionally feckless?
July 14, 2009 — 11:53 pm
Brian Brady says:
“Deriving a statistically significant factor for the likelihood of foreclosure based on the percentage of foreclosures within a Community should not be too difficult”
That’s red-lining and legislation was created to forbid this activity based upon a moral belief. Now, I’m begging the question.
July 15, 2009 — 12:08 am
Teri L says:
>Should contract abiding borrowers be penalized (in future pricing models) for the actions of the intentionally feckless?
Hello? We already are, we already have been.
I’m not being obtuse here, but what has changed suddenly? We’ve been watching the increased acceptance of strategic contract default for years now. Not just real estate, but all sorts of contracts. It’s, suddenly widespread? It’s in your backyard? It makes “strategic” sense to more people?
Now I’m riled, and off we go: we think we can legislate moral behavior, and Brian you know where this is going, but morals cannot be legislated by government, your morals, my morals, our morals, their morals, they have to come from the individual.
The study shows that community pressure is strong. If my neighbors are doing it, it must be okay, make strategic sense. Wow. Too bad about that poor hardship case. How are they going to shake that off? Maybe the strategic folks could chip in to their hardship neighbor, that way you’d only have one foreclosure where you would have had two. If we make it a law, we can legislate the moral behavior of the community. And we can all feel better. Because we want to feel better without having to work for it, right?
You can only be responsible for yourself. The only way to stop strategic foreclosures, if you find them morally wrong, is to let people know that you find them morally wrong. Speak out about it. If you keep this to yourself, then it must be okay.
We have gotten so used to having the government legislate behavior for us, that we have forgotten that we have the ability to do that ourselves- internal and external pressure is powerful. Ask your kids. Mom is a PITA with her constant moralizing, isn’t she? We talk to our kids all the time about resisting peer pressure as if it’s always negative, but we don’t discuss how useful peer pressure is.
Jeff brought up his acquaintance who is way upside down and because she was brought up in the Midwest, she has some moral compunction. Is this regional? Do Midwesterners really exert more pressure on our neighbors to behave certain ways? Isn’t that prickly to most people? We’d much rather have the government tell us how to behave than use our own moral compass or care what our neighbors think. Here’s a few peer pressure tactics from a flyover country mom. Sprinkle them into your conversation at will: You reap what you sow. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you want to hear the music, you have to pay the piper.
Push back. It’s called community peer pressure and push back and it’s effective, and it works, and it’s not rocket science and it doesn’t require governmental intrusion into everyone’s life just because a few of us are confused, or don’t care, or have been taught, by peer pressure, not to pass judgment.
Sorry about the rant, really sorry, but the solution is so simple that even I can see it: It’s okay behavior or it’s not. If it’s not then let people know. Done and done.
July 15, 2009 — 4:53 am
Michael Cook says:
All,
To address the pricing question, I would say no, a moral component is not part of risk pricing. Ultimately, lenders understand two things.
First, ability to pay actually has nothing to do with whether the borrower will pay or not. Many borrowers did not have the ability to pay in 2003-2006, but somehow they managed to keep the payments current until their next refinance. Consumers will beg/borrower/steal as long as they see the upside in it for them. On the other hand, there is very little incentive to try to raise money to continue to pay on a home that has no value.
Second, lender care about the value of the collateral. The reason money was so easy in 2003-2006 was because lender looked forward to consumers not paying their loans. Many times, they could make more on a transaction if they didnt because they could quickly turnaround, sell the property, and charge an enoromous amount of fees doing it.
Is there any wonder why there is a correlation between the foreclosure rate and housing prices. When prices are high, people do not have increased morality, they have aligned financial incentives. When they are low they do not. Its pure economics. And anyone that thinks different should take a behavorial economics class.
I would be willing to bet even that survey was skewed because people will often say one thing and do another.
July 15, 2009 — 5:59 am
Don Reedy says:
A couple of final thoughts on my part.
For Brian and Teri – Got to go with my gut on pretty much everything Teri says. She’s got it right. Not gray, not smudged….just right.
And Brian, you make a valid point to a throw away phrase (I’m calling them “Sotomayor’s” in all my future correspondence) I used about “not being able to legislate morality.” What I was really trying to Sotomayor say was that since we have no moral standards any longer, legislating them is pretty much of a moving and impotent target.
Michael – I ingested your behavior economics info, and it seems you have simplified the economic model. But your use of the phrase “increased morality” indicates to me that you don’t understand that morality isn’t something you switch on and off.
Sean and all, back to my final thought on this. Once you’ve lost your moral compass, the last remaining method by which society holds itself together is by artificially shackling us all by virtue of legislating, re-legislating, and adjudicating the morality none of us are any longer willing to stand up for.
So, yes, redline, change the algorithm, and modify the contractual law that was once based on a moral code, but no longer has enough footing in the legislatures of this country to stand.
July 15, 2009 — 6:23 am
Michael Cook says:
The other item that needs to be addressed is my “No One gets Hurt” comment.
The last time I checked a mortgage contract was between two parties. Why do we blame the consumer for the foreclosure? If the bank actively maintained the house and put a tenant in, would the home still decline in value. Of course not. Once again, this argument comes from a skewed perspective.
I would take it one step further and suggest the bank is the one to blame for property values declining. Under the contract, the bank’s remedy is to take the property back. If the consumer maintains the home while they are under obligation to do so, then tell me how it is their fault when it is no longer their responsibility, but rather its the bank’s responsibility? Contractually, when the bank excercises their remedy, they must then perform. Because they either dont have the man power or dont think it a wise investment, the property deteriorates. This is not the fault of the consumer, nor is it the moral obligation of the consumer, nor is it in any way shape or form the consumers right to even touch the property.
Terri, I think you are missing the point. If all my neighbors started committing suicide, would I be next on the bridge, certainly not. But if they start making sound financial decisions and not taking into account some fictious moral stigma, so will I.
Sean, your bank robbing analogy makes no sense. Thats an illegal behavior. We are talking about two parties that enter into an agreement. Give me another exampe where two parties enter into an agreement and both perform their duty. Contracts are structured such that if one party does not perform, the other party can still be made whole. If banks felt they were somehow being unjustly injured in foreclosure, you can bet they would go the Canada route. The reason why riskier loans tend to have recourse is because the bank expectation of being made whole is much lower.
Lets start thinking with our minds.
July 15, 2009 — 6:41 am
Michael Cook says:
“The banks are taking massive losses on collateral give-backs they never expected. Unless your Goldman, your profits and, at least at the upper management level, your job is getting clobbered.”
Sean, this is probably the most egregious statement I have heard in a very long time. Lets compare the two parties:
An extremely smart bank, who does millions of transactions and who should have a very good understanding of risk, makes a bad loan to a consumer
Vs. A consumer who may be buying their first house and has no experience what so ever in the process.
Somehow I should feel sorry for the bank who made a poor underwriting decision because they take a $100,000 loss, while the consumer takes a $10,000 loss to their downpayment and a hit to their credit rating. Honestly, I think the consumer is the one who gets the shaft in this situation.
They had a belief that the bank was the smart, savvy party and would in no way lend them money on an investment that could lose so much value. In theory, they are correct. In practice, banks didnt just drop the ball, they flushed the ball down the toliet. In my mind, the consumer have about 20-30% of the responsibility and banks have the other 70% because they are suppose to be the ones minding the store, not robbing it.
You will have to excuse me for not shedding tears for banks that are now taking massive losses because they didnt do the very thing they were asked to do. Underwrite an investment and reject any investments that didnt meet a reasonable test of risk/return. Perhaps your job should get clobbered because you didnt do it. I said that as a person, whose job did get clobbered.
July 15, 2009 — 6:52 am
Michael Cook says:
And for a final comment on morality and business. Contracts are in place to avoid any moral ambiguity.
Perhaps 100 years ago before the advent of modern day lawyers, I would have agreed with many of the above statements. Now, contracts are written in such a way that morality does not come into the picture. 50 years ago banks and consumers had a very personal relationship. Now, it is clinical.
Morality has many places in business, but not in contracts. Contracts are designed to keep both parties whole at all times. If at some point one party chooses not to act, then they have contracual rammafications. This should be adhered to even more so when one party is extremely sophisticated and the other party is a complete novice.
Banks enforce their contracts with a ruthless zeal. Morality does not get in the way of them giving a consumer that just lost his/her job two more months. Why does morality go one way? If banks were more willing to work with consumers, then again, the above statements might be applicable. Banks solely make decisions on a finnacial basis, not a moral one. So why should a consumer be any different. Banks dont care about your morality, they just care about the value of their underlying collateral.
Redlining is not a case of pricing based on morality. Its a warpred process of risk adjusting based on a skewed list of factors that banks believe contribute to a consumers willingness to pay. For the record, none of these are morality. Rich people are no more moral than poor people, perhaps they are less even.
This arguement really holds no weight. Morality belongs in a lot of places in life, but it does not belong in specific written agreements between two parties. If it was based in morality, why would you need an agreement at all? Particularly one so detailed.
July 15, 2009 — 7:06 am
Teri L says:
Hi Michael-
>Terri, I think you are missing the point.
I don’t think so. The title of the post is “On Mortgages and Moral Compunction” in which we are asked to discuss the moral, ethical, financial ramifications of 26% of foreclosures being of a strategic nature.
You can call my morals “fictitious moral stigma”, and 26% of foreclosures would agree with you. These strategists are clumped geographically where others feel the same way. I would imagine it’s much more cozy that way- that damn peer pressure works in mysterious ways.
What they are doing is legal, Michael, no doubt. But, as a mother of teenagers, another little seed I’m always planting in my kid’s heads is this “Just because it’s legal, doesn’t make it right”. God I sound like an middle-aged middle American… And for the record, as far as I’m concerned, that goes for banks as well.
July 15, 2009 — 7:25 am
Brian Brady says:
“I would say no, a moral component is not part of risk pricing”
You would be historically wrong, Michael. One of the key components of the private MBS boom was the very moral issue of compunction. If you ever have an opportunity to read any of Lewis Ranieri’s speeches, from the late 80s, you’ll see that a moral component was very much a part of the pricing. If you read his current speeches, you’ll find that a moral component was very much a part of the problem (he believes that Wall Street abandoned the moral responsibility to protect shareholder equity which, in turn, changed the consumer’s attitude towards compunction).
One of the key bullet points to selling the safety of an MBS pool (in the 90s) was to tell the story of a “solid union guy”, painting his white picket fence while listening to the baseball game on his Walkman, waiting for his wife to bring him a hot dog. That’s why institutional investors accepted a lower yield for what were essentially corporate bonds.
“You will have to excuse me for not shedding tears for banks that are now taking massive losses because they didnt do the very thing they were asked to do.”
Which is Ranieri’s current mantra. The banks caused this mess because THEY broke the moral code. Banks had a reasonable expectation that the consumer would act a certain way and consumers had a reasonable expectation that an approved loan, from a bank, would be a tacit approval of their ability to repay said loan.
“Morality has many places in business, but not in contracts”
If you agree to lease my wife for the month of August, where would you like to sign the contract; Pakistan or California?
@Teri: “but morals cannot be legislated by government, your morals, my morals, our morals, their morals, they have to come from the individual”
In 1990 Dallas, I could drink a beer, while driving my pick-up to the gun range, with a shot gun in the flat bed. If I finished that beer, I could buy one from the Circle K and drink a second one…
…unless I crossed over to Johnson County.
July 15, 2009 — 8:20 am
Michael Cook says:
Terri,
My points are that the two are in no way connected. Mortgages and morals are two separate items that never intersect.
A mortage is a contract between two parties. Banks price these products based on ability to pay. A consumers feeling of moral obligation to pay is not priced into a mortgage. There are no morality questions in the underwriting. This is because a bank understands people’s motivation. If they have skin in the game or if they can see potential upside they will pay. If they do not, they will not. The moral obligation people are a bonus and I would submit despite the survey, they are a very small minority of people paying mortgages.
July 15, 2009 — 8:24 am
Brian Brady says:
@MC: Ponder this question before you respond; why do we form corporations?
July 15, 2009 — 8:26 am
Greg Swann says:
> why do we form corporations?
In order to hoard any gains to the owners of the corporation while socializing any losses to everyone who does not own the corporation — moral hazard in its fetal form, the naked essence of Rotarian Socialism. Eliminate liability-limitation and a corporation is just a fancy partnership.
July 15, 2009 — 8:59 am
Michael Cook says:
“If you agree to lease my wife for the month of August, where would you like to sign the contract; Pakistan or California?”
Last I checked it wasnt legal to lease a person in California. And if it is legal and acceptable in Pakistan, then I would happily sign the lease and abide by the contract terms. The essence of a legal contract, with an emphasis on legal, is that two parties are agreeing to do something and they are agreeing to accept a penalty if they do not do that something. Penalties are structured to make a participant whole in event of non-performance. Nothing immoral there.
Perhaps and I am too young to remember when business was done with a handshake vs. with a team of lawyers. In my time, which is right now, lawyers are used for everything. And believe me, much like banks, they have no moral compass. Just simply execute contracts and there is nothing wrong with that in my book.
July 15, 2009 — 8:33 am
Michael Cook says:
“@MC: Ponder this question before you respond; why do we form corporations?”
This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. A corporation is more than a contract between two people and therefore has different obligations, both legal and moral. When they enter into a contract, then they have legal obligations. When they hire employees, they have both legal and moral obligations. Its a very different situation.
July 15, 2009 — 8:36 am
Teri L says:
Brian
>In 1990 Dallas, I could drink a beer, while driving my pick-up to the gun range, with a shot gun in the flat bed. If I finished that beer, I could buy one from the Circle K and drink a second one…
>…unless I crossed over to Johnson County.
You’ve legislated behavior, not morals.
Michael-
See above. I think we agree on this, sorta. You can’t legislate morals. You can only apply pressure internally or externally to behave morally. If a community wants its members to behave in such a way that they don’t walk away strategically from a mortgage, they need to let that be known. If they are not bothered by strategic foreclosures, they keep quiet.
To legislate this means that the people who pay their mortgages have to suffer higher rates. So, does the community suffer or simply apply a moral smack down to the few who are not holding up their end of the legal contract?
July 15, 2009 — 8:45 am
Brian Brady says:
“Last I checked it wasn’t legal to lease a person in California”
Why?
“You’ve legislated behavior, not morals.”
Answer the same question I asked, MC
July 15, 2009 — 9:00 am
Don Reedy says:
Michael,
Interestingly enough, though I promised myself NOT to comment further, I want to lovingly take you to the woodshed.
You say the following, which is very illuminating:
“Perhaps and I am too young to remember when business was done with a handshake vs. with a team of lawyers. In my time, which is right now, lawyers are used for everything. And believe me, much like banks, they have no moral compass. Just simply execute contracts and there is nothing wrong with that in my book.”
This much is clear from your comment; that this discussion belies the obvious fact that your moral compass and my moral compass weren’t calibrated using the same set of rules. You’re not right or wrong, as am I neither right or wrong. But understand and learn from these conversations that the moral underpinnings that Brian, Teri and myself are describing are an actual part of our understanding and sense of the rights/wrongs, pluses/minuses, legal/criminal of all that makes our businesses and lives run.
It’s perfectly okay, you say, for lawyers to execute and have no moral compass. Michael, the Founding Fathers actually decried this same behavior in the King of England, separated this country from that belief, and created the Republic “for which IT stands.” The IT, Michael, in my opinion, is in fact the moral compass that is required if we are to prosper and thrive under the flag and constitution as written and foreseen by our founders.
Since you are younger than me, involved in, and evolved through a country in a state of flux, I believe it is okay for me to act like a father figure and ask, only ask that you consider the moral compass aspect of the legal system, of the mortgage system, of the real estate system, and ultimately the legislative system of this country, in forming all your future decisions about these.
July 15, 2009 — 9:04 am
Brian Brady says:
“Eliminate liability-limitation and a corporation is just a fancy partnership.”
Exactly. As such, loans to corporations carry a higher cost than to individuals because of the limited liability. It WAS a reasonable expectation that a loan to a person carries the liability of the full loan amount whereas the liability to a corporation stopped at the assets of the corporation.
Consumer lending and commercial lending are MUCH different animals
“When they hire employees, they have both legal and moral obligations.”
What moral obligation does a corporation have to its employees, outside of the employment agreement, MC? A corporation’s sole existence is to earn a profit to for its shareholders.
July 15, 2009 — 9:10 am
Sean Purcell says:
Michael,
I asked you earlier what a “smart” decision was and based on your response to my bank robbing analogy, Brian’s wife leasing analogy and your continued reliance on lawyers as the great arbiters of business agreements without morals, I surmise that you define “smart” as “legal.” Really? Laws are very, very temporary; morality has a somewhat longer shelf life. Do you want to base your argument on the “rightness” of things we’ve made legal in this country in the past? I doubt Teri would appreciate the legal fact that she is not qualified to vote. I doubt there’s much you’d like at all in that type of morally bankrupt definition.
The question is: do the banks price their product based on an understood moral compunction to make payments. Ignoring the existence and/or decline of such a thing is to stick your head in the sand. Pricing is more than supply and demand. What business man would not also include prevailing attitudes, trends,
political machinations and group morality into their model? (Hint: think fresh out of business school.) Where I grew up we called that: “All hat and no cattle.”
July 15, 2009 — 9:23 am
Russ says:
The increase in walk aways as a business decision is probably tied to the increase of people buying homes as an investment versus shelter. What is often understated in the media is the amount of investment/speculation and outright fraud that occurred during the boom years. When you dig into the foreclosure numbers, something like 50% of the foreclosures are investment properties. I think the appearance that there is no shame in foreclosures is evidence to this fact. The majority of the people being foreclosed on entered into the contract as a business arrangement so their decisions are based purely on what makes financial sense and has nothing to do with morals.
Homeowners who view their home as a long term purchase and shelter are probably far less likely to walk away when upside down and as long as they can continue making their payments.
I also think banks have also brought some of this on themselves. I think initially, many consumers try to hold up their end of the bargain and find that banks are being clinical in their treatment. So out of frustration, many people take a screw the bank attitude since it is clear they are no longer dealing with an individual, but a faceless machine that views them as a number on a spreadsheet.
July 15, 2009 — 9:30 am
Sean Purcell says:
Rob Chipman brings up an interesting contradiction: in his area (British Columbia) their loans are recourse. Down here in the US, they are (generally speaking) non-recourse. Yet the rates are the same. This makes sense IF you believe in moral compunction, as recourse loan borrowers and moral compunction borrowers create roughly the same level of risk to the lender. If there is no moral compunction (or never was) then something’s very wrong with this model.
Either US lenders have priced in the “it’s only a contract” model championed by Michael, in which case the BC lenders are royally screwing their borrowers who present a much lower risk OR the BC lenders are priced correctly for borrowers who provide a very low risk of default and the US lenders need to raise their rates/fees immediately.
July 15, 2009 — 9:31 am
Thomas Hall says:
Fascinating discussion all around. I am with Michael on this one. How would pricing mortgage rates in the absence of moral compunction be any different than other consumer debt? A credit card? Granted – credit card debt is unsecured, but consumer debt is priced this way – the fact that the asset is collateralized I believe has changed due to the collapse of property values.
How is the failure of banks and insurance giant AIG any less of a failure of moral compunction by not doing adequate due diligence in evaluating risk? Forgive me, but the assumption that real estate values ALWAYS go up is not a fixed assumption. In fact, were property value declines ever baked into the pricing when Credit Default Swaps were underwritten 60 fold? This is was blatantly irresponsible.
I have to go with Michael that the blame for mortgage defaults are falling more squarely on the shoulders of banks, not consumers.
Having recently left Chicago for Dallas, the value of my condo has lost roughly 35% of its value – this is a very real issue for me.
July 15, 2009 — 9:36 am
Brian Brady says:
“(Hint: think fresh out of business school.)”
I don’t think that matters for my point. What I’m trying to get across to all of you is that laws DO stem from moral beliefs and the wife-leasing example illustrates it. We forbid spouse leasing because, in California, we don’t think of people as chattel. The same spouse leasing contract may be enforceable in Pakistan (I’m not sure).
July 15, 2009 — 9:40 am
Sean Purcell says:
Russ,
I agree with your general take on investors vs homeowners, but I don’t believe the study I referenced was directed toward investors. The increasing likelihood for a strategic foreclosure due to increasing negative equity was a response, not only of homeowners, but of homeowners who had previously said they felt that walking away for strategic reasons was morally wrong. A little scary…
July 15, 2009 — 10:05 am
Michael Cook says:
“Down here in the US, they are (generally speaking) non-recourse. Yet the rates are the same. This makes sense IF you believe in moral compunction, as recourse loan borrowers and moral compunction borrowers create roughly the same level of risk to the lender.”
More faulty logic. There are things called RMBS markets and government backed entities that buy these loans to cover the recouse issue or at the very least muddy the waters. Morality is not in the cards. Keep trying to put it there though. This is 2009, not 1950. Note this is why jumbo, non conforming loans are more expensive. True no recourse loans.
July 15, 2009 — 10:20 am
Russ says:
Sean:
The distinction is clear. The problem with many of these studies is that they rarely make a distinction between the two and ususally deal at a much higher macro level as opposed to really understanding the characteristics of the individual borrowers. I would argue that there are many “homeowners” who are actually investors or certainly falling into a grey area. Many of these borrowers are NOT investors in the traditional sense of the word, but more passive/amateur type investors. I call them specuvestors.
I was just saying that the increase in people who no longer feel walking away is wrong is probably indicative of the increase in homeowners who view their homes more from an investment/speculative perspective as opposed to pure shelter. This is also compounded by the fact that many of these borrowers probably also used mortgage products popular with that group – alt A loans, stated products, option arms, sub prime, etc.
The increase is probably not so much related to homeowners all of sudden losing their moral compass, but that the demographics of the homeowners is probably a little different than in the past.
July 15, 2009 — 10:35 am
Sean Purcell says:
Michael,
Mortgage Backs cover the recourse issue? Jumbos are more expensive because they are true no-recourse? You’ve got to stick to your areas of expertise Michael, you’re wrong on both counts. But that’s not the point. I’m not trying to put morality anywhere. As a matter of fact, if you go back you’ll see I’m rather neutral on the subject. There’s no doubt it has been a component (see Brian’s tutorial on Ranieri), but the study mentioned in the post appears to show that any vestige of moral compunction is gone. Stop telling me whether that’s right or wrong (I don’t care). Here’s the question:
Are lenders using an accurate pricing model given the study referenced in the post which makes clear the degree to which borrowers are willing to walk away from their mortgage for “strategic” reasons? You’re a Wall Street investment banker for crying out loud. Enough of the moral vacuum; give me your opinion on how the lenders should price their loans. (Another hint: jumbo loans reflect post-compunction risk / reward analysis).
July 15, 2009 — 11:13 am
Kenneth G. Smith II says:
If someone can pay rent, that rent can be considered part of a mortgage payment. The government is providing $8,000 for first time buyers, so why can’t the government pay part of the payment and have the borrower repay the government in the future?? Here is an example of how it could work.
• Mr. and Mrs. ZZZZZ have a mortgage payment of $1,170 ($200,000 loan with 30 year payout at 5.75% interest).
• The ZZZZ’s lose their job and can only pay $470, so the government pays the difference of $700
• So the ZZZZ’s remain homeowners and work through their problem. It takes the ZZZZ’s 10 months to get back on their feet, the government paid out $7,000 and now the ZZZZ’s owe the government.
• But the government says okay, you can start paying us back in seven years and the payment will be over 10 years at an interest rate of 3%.
What the government has done is to provide assistance to the property owner (just like the bailout plans for the Financial Industry and Automotive Industry) and requires them to pay back the obligation starting in seven years. This is not a freebie, but short term assistance. Franklin Roosevelt called it Lend Lease.
This program is not perfect, but it can assist a lot of people who want to own homes. Most importantly, it is channeled directly to the property owner, not a large corporation that has other motives besides keeping the property owner solvent.
A significant benefit of this program is that payments to financial institutions will resume and cash flow will get back to normal levels, thus credit availability should improve.
There needs to be conditions such as confirming gross income via income tax statements; confirming employment and confirming current payroll. The only group of individuals who would be excluded are those who own more than one property (there should be no break to the investor who treated real estate as a business) and cases where mortgage fraud exists in the form of straw buyers and invalid sales (properties that sold more than three times within five years and the value change was greater than 150%).
This total assistance would be capped at $50,000 and could run for 24 to 36 months
In a given year up to $25,000 could be provided.
The government would be releasing the funds over 12 months, thus the federal outlay would be limited.
The total cost of $10 million loans receiving assistance would be $250 billion per year or $500 billion in total.
This is much cheaper than the TARP bailout and part of this can be funded with the current $70 billion in TARP repayments.
The greatest difficulty in implementing this program is processing and accounting. Loan Servicing companies would need to add staff (if one servicer can process 50 applications a week, 4,000 servicers would need to be hired, plus additional support staff) Wow, as many as 10,000 new jobs would be created. Add to this job creation the fact that several million homes do not go into foreclosure and more jobs are not lost due to desperate situations.
Yes it is possible and yes it can work.
The reason it can work is because real estate goes through cycles. If people are forced to sell at liquidation prices, everyone loses. Give property owners a chance to get back on their feet, get back to work and the whole economy starts to turn around.
As stated earlier, this is not perfect and many will complain about the injustice. But think about the injustice of the corporate bailouts, the injustice that first time home buyers get a break, the injustice that shareholders come before the individuals who created value in the companies by buying products. One can go on and on, or we can try.
We only fail if we do not try.
July 15, 2009 — 12:17 pm
Michael Cook says:
“Mortgage Backs cover the recourse issue? Jumbos are more expensive because they are true no-recourse?”
Sean, you are probably misinterpeting this point. I do not mean to imply that because the government guarantees the loans or because a bank can sell the loans to the RMBS market that they are the same as recourse mortgages. I am saying the extra benefit of recourse declines when you have those additional factors. Lets say for example a none recourse loan prices 100 bps higher then a recourse loan. After taking into account a government backed guarantee and pooling the risk of these loans, the spread might decrease to 10 bps. This is my point. And for the record, I am definitely not out of my league in this discussion. I work on pricing commercial investment loans all the time. Unlike my residential counterparts, we have to consider a variety of guarantees in our pricing model.
Pricing is based on can the loan be securitized and how easily we can recover capital if things go badly. There is never a thought about whether the borrower will decide to continue to pay us if he is underwater. Some times they do and some times they dont. Its definitely not priced in.
I will give you this point, however. We are less likely to lend to someone of poor character, e.g., someone that has a previous history of fraud. If this is the point you are trying to make, I will agree, but short of criminal history and credit history, I dont care. Again, you could argue that credit history speaks to character, but I dont think that is a good argument. Just because someone cant pay does not mean they dont want to pay. You just cant figure out their motives, so rather then try, you make data based decisions.
Simple answer, morality is not in my underwriting and is not priced into my loans.
July 15, 2009 — 3:00 pm
Dave Shafer says:
Fascinating discussion. Somehow I don’t think morality is directly priced in, but indirectly through historic averages. Foreclosures have been historically low, which can be at least partially due to morality.
Now here is where I depart. I would argue there has been no departure from the basic morality of not paying a debt. This study is of what people say they might do, not what they really do [and there is a big difference; ie check out the divorce rates for proof of that!]. The actual reasons for foreclosures haven’t deviated much from 20 years ago. Loss of income being #1 then and now. The margin people had to work with is just very different when they loan to 60% debt to income as opposed to 38% and property can’t be sold to at least a break even point fast enough. In a normal market, 3 months is probably enough time to sell a property and if you have had it for a couple of years you might even make a little change on the side. If you stick a sign in your yard and three months later you have one offer and it is at 60% of what your mortgage is, then you have a different calculus, not a different morality.
July 15, 2009 — 6:17 pm
David Losh says:
Banks wanted quick foreclosure and they got it. Lenders and investors wanted to change the bankruptcy laws and they got it.
It’s nothing personal, it’s just business. This is the Real Estate business.
Banks have recourse on seconds and Bank of America is inserting recourse language into short sales.
The consumer has foreclosure and bankruptcy.
If the moral question about paying on a contract comes up I can say without hesitation that banks are the villains here. Millions of people have been swindled by loose underwriting that was geared toward generating Loan Origination Fees for products sold in the secondary market then used for mortgaged backed securities. Billions of paper profits were fabricated out of thin air.
Morally? Banks have created a global economic melt down.
July 15, 2009 — 7:59 pm
Brian Brady says:
“Simple answer, morality is not in my underwriting and is not priced into my loans.”
It most certainly is, MC. Even in the CMBS market, character is measured through a credit rating. Credit reports are measures of character and predicts a measure of compunction. Compunction is a VERY moral issue.
A residential credit score or a Moody’s rating is a measure of compunction because it measures the expectation of default.
This question is directed at MC and Sean; do y’all really think residential mortgages are non-recourse loans? In California and Arizona, for example, judicial foreclosure allows for the lender to pursue a deficiency judgment. In few states are residential mortgages non-recourse.
July 15, 2009 — 8:20 pm
Brian Brady says:
ADDITION: SBA loans are full recourse to owners with a greater than 20% equity stake. They will chase those people for the deficiency balance.
July 15, 2009 — 8:24 pm
michael cook says:
Brian,
I disagree on the credit rating issue. Like David S. above I believe a credit rating has a lot more to do with life circumstances than willingness to pay.
Consider myself for example. I have a high credit rating, but would have no issue walking away from a very bad real estate purchase. Or what about the many folks who have loss their income? Are they unwilling or simply unable to pay. Its a gray area at best.
Given the income, I would guess most people would choose to pay there debts, but there are so many situations in life that can get people in trouble. Poor financial planning does not mean people don’t have the moral will to pay.
For the people that feel like morality is priced in, can you give me a sense of how much it accounts for? Is it a 1% decrease in rates? In my opinion, even if it was priced in (which I do not believe), it would have to be an extremely small factor.
Given the benefits of securitization, government guarantees and what had been a very robust housing market in which foreclosures were selling at market rates, I would be surprised if there was even a noticeable difference.
Sean, our local pricing expert, any guesses? If you have a borrower with “poor morals”, but an 800 credit rating, does he/she get a higher interest rate than a person of strong moral character with a 650? What does it mean to the bottom line?
July 16, 2009 — 3:59 am
michael cook says:
The recourse discussion is off topic, but worth a quick paragraph or two. How much is it really worth. Most people have all of there savings in their home. By the time they can’t pay their mortgage, they probably have no other assets to seize. As a bank fighting in bankruptcy court, you can only hope to get your property back in reasonable condition. I would be surprised if more than 5% of those foreclosures result in the bank getting any more than their property.
Guarantees are only worth something if you can force performance. I find it hard to believe even in states like California that banks are recovering anything. Perhaps this is another way to ensure people don’t just walk away, though I am sure that is a small minority of the borrowers.
July 16, 2009 — 4:43 am
David Losh says:
In every discussion about the morality of walking from a home loan I have been in people focus on the home owner’s morality rather than the bank. In almost every discussion the home owner is painted like they are the morally corrupt for even thinking of not paying a debt.
How about the banks lending policies?
Banks handed out credit cards that have clauses in the contract that allows for 30% interest plus fees and penalties. As those unsecured debts mounted banks began loosening underwriting standards to lend more and more on homes.
Appraisals were liberal for second mortgages that paid off credit card debt. Unsecured debt became secured. All debt was sold to investors who were only looking at banking profits rather than stability.
It’s called a ponzi scheme at best.
How about the banks morality? I’m not brilliant, but I do pay attention. The credit crisis never passed my radar. Now that we have it I think no one should pay for a swindle.
Another thing no one looks at is if these loans are criminal. Swindle by device is illegal. Fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud are illegal. I have many clients who are in trouble with loans and can not sell the property. I’m good at short sales and am finding that banks are good at double talk. It all seems like a con job to me.
Our government should be going after these guys and instead the government is giving them more money.
Sorry that my thoughts are so random and condensed. My intention is to make the impression.
July 16, 2009 — 6:39 am
Teri L says:
The study is not what might happen, the study states that “26% of the record number of home mortgage defaults across the country” were strategic”. Were, as in a done deal, not, might if maybe under certain circumstances.
The study says that if my neighbors are doing it, then me too.
That banks have screwed people in more ways than we knew we could be screwed by a bank does not release an individual person from their own moral convictions. Whatever those are. Or are not.
That the neighbors in one neighborhood are looking at their homes as a business contract should not impact a neighborhood where a home is a shelter not an investment gone sour.
We don’t have to red-line, we don’t have to have governmental committees formed to study this, and then another governmental committee formed to make recommendations about the study to a third governmental committee that will recommend we create a fourth governmental committee to create laws to protect… I’m not clear about who is being protected by laws here, doesn’t matter. We can use the very same thing that is strongly at play here: Community pressure to do what the community finds is the right way to handle this, but that’s not going to work because who wants to live next to Mom.
So. No redlining. No Mom. It’s not moral, it’s just business, it’s no big deal and banks are truly corrupt. Fine.
Plan B- Open to public the type of foreclosures in each neighborhood. 16% of all foreclosures in Sunnyville were strategic. Over here in Happytown, 5.6% were strategic. Ivywood is showing 61% strategic. Transparency, no new laws, no punishing anyone for either sticking it out or walking away. And, if it’s important to someone to live in a community where this is not at play, they can see the, values? can we call them values? that community holds. Done and doner.
July 16, 2009 — 7:20 am
David Losh says:
I agree and have always agreed that the banking industry needs to be left alone to fix their own mess. Giving banks money has back fired.
Bank of America is bragging about loan modification. It’s a prank they are playing with our tax dollars. In my opinion, if banks were left alone they would have to deal with the consumers.
As it is now banks have a ready supply of federal dollars that as near as I can tell are shoring up cash reserves rather than circulating. That’s pretty good evidence to me that banks know exactly what they are doing and have all along.
A stretch in logic?
July 16, 2009 — 7:40 am
Dan Connolly says:
Very interesting thread. While I have always been on the side of the moral requirement to pay, I am beginning to see some sense in Michael Cook’s position. Don’t think it changes my basic belief, but helps me understand the logic.
July 16, 2009 — 8:18 am
Dave Shafer says:
If that study is correct in its assertion that 26% of all foreclosures are strategic then it contradicts every other study I have seen. When you get a study that varies so much from what other studies have demonstrated you need to take a step back and question the veracity. Not saying whether it is wrong or right, but I would like to see others that demonstrate the same percentages before I believe!
July 16, 2009 — 9:27 am
Rob Chipman says:
FWIW, (since Michael has expressed that recourse vs. non-recourse is a little off topic and since I think I was one of the original recourse raisers) there seem to be a few differences in our system here in BC and varoious US systems (and I stress I’m not a US expert). First, mortgage loans are recourse here. Key mail is not easy. 2nd, foreclosure isn’t easy for banks here – it can take ove a year before we get a court ordered sale, and I gather the system differs in other material ways as well (namely, the lender gets a conduct of sale, but the judge continues to look after the borrower’s interests – “equity of redemption – and has the final say on whether the sale goes through or not). 3rd, appraisals here seem to follow much stricter guidelines than in the US (discussions of changes to appraisal paractices in the US really surprised me – there seemed to be an absence of arm’s length there). 4th, there seems to be an idea in the US that the lender and the borrower are sharing risk on the downside, but not on the upside, as in “lend me money, and I’ll repay or you can have the house” vs. “lend me money and I’ll repay, and if I don’t you can take the house without prejudice to your other options”. It seems accepted in some parts of the US that if house values drop the bank should suffer. Here the idea is that property values can drop, and that’s why banks lend mortgage money rather than speculate in real estate (I could be wrong about my US observations, I freely admit. I’m looking at the US from pretty far away).
Anyway, Sean commented that lenders here are either charging too much or lenders in the US were charging too little. A look at results makes me think its the latter. JMHO, and I could be completely wrong.
July 16, 2009 — 10:48 am
Brian Stockwell says:
Sean
“In other words, one in four of the current foreclosures is not due to hardship, but rather a lack of compunction.” And “Of course, this leads back to the question of whether or not there’s a difference between “unable to pay” and “not paying” (The devil’s in the details.)”
-Just because someone has the ability to pay doesn’t mean they are not in a hardship. A lot of people are sacrificing a lot to stay in their homes and I’m not sure that is a good thing. It may benefit them more to walk, re-group, start to save more and spend less, and change their habits than to ‘stick it out’ because of morality issues or community peer pressure. Sometimes perseverance through adversity is a good thing to teach our children, sometimes admitting mistakes and correcting bad habits is too.
“It’s your Character; your likelihood to honor your debts, although lenders don’t like to say that because it has a snooty, superiority quality.”
-Aren’t you honoring your debt if you walk? You are forfeiting your right to the deed and giving possession of the home back to the lender.
“Is accurately pricing mortgages for the housing industry somehow above such questions?”
-I would think not, it is the lender who is lending their money. They should be able to ask whatever they want to ask, if the consumer doesn’t like it they can shop for a different loan. Do we have a right as citizens to get loans from banks to buy homes? I should hope not. People can save money and buy a home for cash if they don’t like/trust the current lending practices.
“But I’ll add one other point: the banks are being hurt to a much greater degree than the homeowner. The homeowner walks away, waits a few years and starts again. The banks are taking massive losses on collateral give-backs they never expected.”
-Really Sean, really? The bank can’t walk away (write-off, bankruptcy)? They can and they do, and those who ran them are probably not destitute – they are back at it again in some other venture.
Brian
“You would be historically wrong, Michael. One of the key components of the private MBS boom was the very moral issue of compunction.”
-This is surprising to hear. I would have thought that lenders price mortgage rates with the assumption that a consumer WILL walk if it is in their benefit to do so. It just so happens that right now it is in the consumer’s best interest to walk much more than any other time in history; and much more than the banks had forecasted.
July 16, 2009 — 11:46 am
Sean Purcell says:
Michael,
I was going to comment on your assertion: “Given the income, I would guess most people would choose to pay there debts” as that directly contradicts the study mentioned in the post, but Teri already did such a good job. What do you think of her idea for more community transparency? I have admit it makes sense that those who think nothing of walking away should live in the area where property value and appearance are not as important.
You also asked me to quantify how much moral compunction may have affected rates. I don’t know, of course. My question from the beginning has been: did lenders price moral compunction into the equation and if they did – and it’s gone now – should we expect to see rates change? But let’s ask those commenting and onlookers alike to help with this:
Michael Cook (for argument’s sake) comes to you, gentle reader, for a residential purchase loan. (Let’s make it easy and say owner-occupied.) He has strong income and credit scores over 800. He is a well qualified borrower. He’s putting 3.5% down and tells you flat out that if the value drops below the purchase price, he is going to walk on the mortgage. You will be responsible for foreclosing, maintaining and selling the property – taking all losses as your own. Current rates for a well qualified borrower are 5% What rate would you like in return for that risk?
What about 10% down?
What about 20% down?
July 16, 2009 — 2:07 pm
Sean Purcell says:
David,
I agree that the focus is on the homeowner, but I believe that’s made clearer by something Jeff Brown said early on: “why can’t the lender raise a fixed rate of 4.5% to 7% if that’s the new market?” The lender has honored their end of the bargain: they didn’t raise the rate. But the borrowed is the one defaulting no the agreement. Michael’s disagreement notwithstanding, do you believe a mortgage is a simple tit-for-tat agreement? Payments or the house… it’s all the same thing? Isn’t it more accurate to say not making your payment is a default for which the lender has only one real remedy: take back the house and try to minimize losses? The focus should be on the borrower.
July 16, 2009 — 2:18 pm
Sean Purcell says:
For yet another take on this, read Rob Chipman’s last comment. Why is it that we think borrowers and lenders share the risk on the downside, but all profit belongs to the borrower on the upside?
Michael, you out there? Does this mean that lenders are basically just selling “puts?” If property stays flat or goes up they get their fee, but if it goes down they incur losses? I don’t think that’s part of the pricing model right now, do you?
July 16, 2009 — 2:21 pm
Sean Purcell says:
Dave Shafer,
Would be interested in any links to other studies you want to put up; I don’t know about anyone else, but I find borrowers responses to these questions very interesting.
July 16, 2009 — 2:24 pm
Brian Brady says:
“The recourse discussion is off topic, but worth a quick paragraph or two. How much is it really worth.”
Quite a bit. Ask any borrower who has defaulted on a US Dept of Ed student loan (simple business decision) why they can’t get an SBA loan….or a VA loan…or an FHA loan.
“Like David S. above I believe a credit rating has a lot more to do with life circumstances than willingness to pay.”
Why do employers and SROs (like the NASD) pull credit reports as a condition of employment? HINT: They really don’t care about your past financial performance.
July 16, 2009 — 4:37 pm
Sean Carr says:
Let’s look at things from a different perspective.
It’s 2006. I’ve found online securities trading firm called Dumb Trade that’s going to give me a great deal. Their going to allow me to open an options trading account with a 7 to 1 available margin. They’ve also done a really interesting thing in allowing me to use the option contracts I buy as the underlying collateral for the options contracts themselves in lieu of cash in my account. The government is even going to allow me to write off the interest on the margin loan. Perhaps their trying to promote online trading, I don’t know. I’m really smart and buy call options in Countrywide and AIG. A year goes by and the call options are essentially worthless. I’m out an initial $10,000 investment but my account is in the red $70,000 because I took full advantage of the allowable investment margin. I’m however under no obligation to repay it under the terms of my trading account contract yet none the less Dumb Trade would like me to pay back the full amount. Call it a sudden lack of compunction but I close the account and that’s that. Cry me a river for Dumb Trade.
In reality option traders have to maintain minimum margin balances. That rule was thrown away for housing which was promoted as a safe leveraged investment. Compunction or lack there of has no place in the vocabulary of an Actuary.
July 16, 2009 — 7:12 pm
David Losh says:
I’m sorry Sean Purcell, but you are way out there.
It took me a long time to see it, let’s try this. Most people think of “It’s A Wonderful Life” when they think of banking. Depositors make deposits and banks lend that money.
What happens is that depositors make deposits and the bank keeps it in reserves. The bank borrows money to make the loans then sells the loans to investors who leverage the loans with the promise of future income. They sell that future income by bundling mortgage backed securities.
Please forgive the simplistic over view, but it is only to get to the heart of the matter.
That future income is based on the consumer’s ability to pay. OK, the first wave of default were people who should have never bought a house, had no income, who were hoping for a miracle. Second wave of defaults were loan payment resets. The third phase which are in now is the strategic, those wanting to walk. Next wave are the unemployed and beyond that will be the people who bought and realize they were swindled.
We have a long ways to go. Ultimately the consumer will just stop paying banks.
Banks have long been the villain in people’s lives, but this last bit of lending was over the top, even for a bank.
Now you seem to feel sorry for the bank. According to your comments the banks were doing legitimate business and the consumer should just pay up. A consumer caught with a credit card bill that has a 30% interest rate should just pay up because that’s what they agreed to. Oh wait, the consumer got a 0% rate for six months then it went to 30%, but wait there’s more.
Instead of paying 30% interest a consumer can get a second mortgage for 8% and save. Then the consumer can refi the first and second into a new first position loan at an even lower 6%, now 5%.
It makes no difference. the banks make money, are making money, have always made money and will continue to make money. They collect fees and interest income and for that they get a 1% servicing fee. The consumer is tapped out, but there are always more people to come to the roulette wheel.
July 17, 2009 — 12:35 am
Teri Lussier says:
>Call it a sudden lack of compunction but I close the account and that’s that. Cry me a river for Dumb Trade.
Right.
And the neighbors? Sucks to be them?
July 17, 2009 — 5:07 am
Sean Carr says:
Of course it’s unfortunate to be the neighbor. This is really my point; in any type of investment where we allow people to de-couple risk from reward the system will be abused and someone will be left with the unintended consequences. In real estate there’s neighbors so our eyes get teary but that distracts us from the issue that establishing counterparty risk should be done, to the best of out human ability, in a business like manor by lawyers and actuaries acting independently. Had there been any attempt at sound underwriting this problem largely disappears. The system was/is set up to book profits on the front end so I would argue that if we are to label foreclose to include lack of compunction then it sits at the top of a pyramid of dubious transactions. Believe me I’m not preaching morality. I worked at a telecom during the tech bubble and received quite a bit of cash from stock options that were booked based on the future earnings much like RE commissions are based on assumption of future performance of the loan.
I’m not giving the money back either.
We could both argue that that’s not our job to have a level of active participation in future performance of the asset. Whether that’s right or not is irrelevant because it doesn’t change the fact that the majority of people will act in there own financial self interest.
Treat the contract at arms length as a business transaction as Mr. Cook alluded to. Weight the transaction heavily based on actuarial data and limit emotion and we won’t have a problem to argue about and the neighbors will be fine.
July 17, 2009 — 6:29 am
Teri Lussier says:
>Of course it’s unfortunate to be the neighbor.
Of course.
It’s doubly unfortunate if that neighbor might be the same neighbor who has taken great care of their property, keeping the neighboring property values higher than would have been otherwise, but that’s beside the point.
>Weight the transaction heavily based on actuarial data and limit emotion and we won’t have a problem to argue about and the neighbors will be fine.
Right.
Which is why I want to know exactly where the foreclosures, strategic and otherwise, are taking place so that I can best advise those silly pesky emotional moms who want to purchase a property to create some loving memories for their families, how to purchase without all those damned emotions that just gum up the system. Transparency. Facts. Numbers only. I agree. Probably past time to bow out of this conversation…
Great post, Sean! 😉
July 17, 2009 — 7:07 am
Dave Shafer says:
Sorry Sean, don’t have time to find the links right now. However, the largest study of the last few years was the Countrywide study. It’s a little dated now, but is consistent with past studies.
@David L:
There were no large bump of people foreclosing because of rate resets. The vast majority of folks were foreclosed on before any resets happened. The most likely trajectory has been folks that never should have gotten a loan were foreclosed on starting in early 2007 through 2008 and then laid-off workers started the next wave. The pick-a-pay [option arm] loans are suffering heavy losses now, most of which were written in the 2005-2006 time frame. Indeed these loans might be the ones the study picked up on and described as strategic as they were heavily marketed to investors and through equity management companies to marginal borrowers with little reserves.
Frankly, in all the general sociological data, there is little to demonstrate any large change in behavior happening in short periods of time. Changes happen over generations, but not over a couple of years. That is why I am so doubtful of the original study. Of course general rules leave room for specific instances that contradict the general rule.
Perhaps, Realtors could use this experience to help their buyers as Terri suggested. Look at patterns of value declines and you will get a good understanding of where those Moms would be best off purchasing. I know in my area there are a couple neighborhoods devastated by foreclosures and most that are not. The inland empire of SoCal appears to be in terrible shape while other areas seem to be better off. Recently, I saw a study that demonstrated that homes in good school districts were better off than homes in poor school districts. Of course all this is obvious for most of you smart realtors.
As too the bad banks, they are suffering. But I believe realtors and mortgage originators who kept selling even though the bubble was obvious, bear some of the blame too. I am surprised more lawsuits haven’t been filed against them for bad advice like gets filed against stock jocks for their bad advice.
July 17, 2009 — 8:05 am
Brian Brady says:
“Treat the contract at arms length as a business transaction as Mr. Cook alluded to”
There is nothing wrong with what you and Michael Cook propose. We can start lending on houses like we do on securities accounts. The author asks if we adopt such a loan program, will the pricing (loan terms) change because we’ve moved away from a loan that requires the borrower to “stake his reputation” as additional “collateral”.
I think if you do some research, you’ll find that 80% securities loans won’t offer fixed term periods because of the risk involved. Non-recourse loans are much more expensive than a residential mortgage…
..which was the author’s point.
July 17, 2009 — 8:14 am
michael cook says:
“The recourse discussion is off topic, but worth a quick paragraph or two. How much is it really worth.”
Quite a bit. Ask any borrower who has defaulted on a US Dept of Ed student loan (simple business decision) why they can’t get an SBA loan….or a VA loan…or an FHA loan”
Again, off topic. I didnt ask about those loans, I asked about mortgages. By the time you default on your mortgage you are probably tapped out from an asset standpoint. Is the lender going to even get their court costs back at that point? I highly doubt it. It strikes me as almost worthless.
July 17, 2009 — 9:05 am
michael cook says:
“Given the income, I would guess most people would choose to pay there debts” as that directly contradicts the study mentioned in the post.”
I dont agree with this point. While people might have enough money to pay their mortgage, they might not be able to pay medical bills, credit cards and other debts. They also might want some cushion for a potential layoff. There are a lot of reason to have the money to pay the mortgage, but to choose not to.
July 17, 2009 — 9:08 am
michael cook says:
The issue of who benefits from the upside is a fair point to discuss. Lender supply debt and borrowers supply equity. Debt is traditionally much less risky than debt and should expect lower returns. Banks require a downpayment to cover their perceived downside risk. The higher the down payment the lower the risk.
For all those people financially in the dark above that wondered why banks should not participate in the upside, its simple. Because the consumer is in the first lost position. Banks dont participate with the consumer on the downside until the consumer is wiped out. Techinically, this is not participating. If banks took a dollar for dollar loss, then they could expect a dollar for dollar gain.
Here is a quick example: If the house lose 5% in value and a consumer has put 10% down, the bank is still whole and has 5% cushion for their investment. However, lets quickly imagine instead of a consumer losing 5% of their value, your mortgage was reduced by 2.5%. You get lowered payments and if you were to sell the house, your payoff of the mortgage would be lower.
While a lot of consumers would jump at this idea, banks dont want that extra volatility. In order to gain extra security, they dont participate in the downside. At the same time, consumers solely participate in the upside as well. Keep in mind, this also gives the bank additional security to their collateral, so they do get some benefit of the upside movements.
This is really finance 101 type stuff. Debt providers take much less risk then equity holders. Small changes in valuation have little effect on debt holders, while they have giant effects on equity holders. In the example above a consumer loses 50% of their equity on a 5% decline in value. If banks were willing to share in that loss, then they would be entitled to share in that gain.
July 17, 2009 — 9:18 am
Sean Purcell says:
Sean Carr,
I’m however under no obligation to repay it under the terms of my trading account contract yet none the less Dumb Trade would like me to pay back the full amount. Call it a sudden lack of compunction but I close the account and that’s that. Cry me a river for Dumb Trade
You’re right: that’s one dumb-ass Trading Firm. Why would they do business with you if you’re under “no obligation” to repay? More importantly, what does that have to do with mortgages? You are most certainly under an obligation to pay back your loan. Recourse vs. non-recourse notwithstanding (and I’m slowly learning from this comment thread that there are actually very, very few non-recourse loans in this nation) you are always under an obligation to repay the loan.
You appear to be mis-defining the concept of obligation as: “an action I may or may not take based on whether there’s anything they can do about.” Your incorrect definition differs from Michael’s, which seems to be: “My only obligation is look out for my own interests. If the contra party didn’t look out for theirs well enough… good on me,” but the result of both mistakes is the same. This may seem a little obvious, but please allow me:
This is at the essence of the question I originally posed. If borrowers have decided to ignore or abandon their obligation, how will lenders change their pricing (if at all)? Maybe a follow-up question should be: “If borrowers decide to abandon their obligations, how much of their rights and individual power should they expect to lose also?”
July 17, 2009 — 9:18 am
Sean Purcell says:
David,
I don’t think I’m that far out there, especially in that I agree with you on a number of points. I’m no fan of the banks. (I’m the original author of the Tin Foil Hat Productions: I’d be willing to bet I see more conspiracy than you do.) I’m simply saying that, given your assertion: “Ultimately, the consumer will just stop paying banks,” do you think banks will change their pricing to absorb this risk? If so, then by how much?
You also said: “Banks have long been the villain in people’s lives, but this last bit of lending was over the top, even for a bank.” I suppose if banks are the villain, people should just stop using their money. Or are you suggesting that banks should have to lend and what’s needed is yet another layer of government regulations and oversights to protect consumers from their own inability to make sound financial decisions?
July 17, 2009 — 9:29 am
michael cook says:
Sean,
You miss understood several of my points above. The first point is that even if this is priced in, it is worth very little. When underwriting investments, banks underwrite the asset first and the borrower second. The reason this is done is because banks have no expectation that consumers will continue to pay as values decline. As values increase, foreclosures decrease and the reverse. Consumers have been walking away for years and any bank that thinks consumers will continue to pay on an underwater loan will be shutting its door very quickly.
“Why do employers and SROs (like the NASD) pull credit reports as a condition of employment? HINT: They really don’t care about your past financial performance.”
Actually, they really do care about your past financial performance. They dont care about whether you pay your debts or not, they care about if your indebtness will make you more likely to commit fraud to pay your creditors. Bad credit doesnt mean bad character, as much as it could mean desperate and willing to do bad things to pay bills. It would seem like in this case, people with “moral compunction” would be more likely to steal to pay their debts, so perhaps this is faulty logic, no?
July 17, 2009 — 9:31 am
michael cook says:
Terri,
You really seem more concerned about the fall out to the neighborhood, but you still havent addressed my point of where that blame should lie? If I have a legal option to turn my keys in to the lender and they agree to this option, why am I still responsible for my neighbors? Why are you not more angry at the banks for not maintaining these properties and not putting in tenants to keep you values high?
Help me understand why I have any obligation to my neighbors at all? Do they help me pay my mortgage when I cannot? Do they share in my financial losses on my mortgage? Where is my moral obligation to them? Tell me why you should not be organizing protests against the banks, who own the properties but do nothing with it vs. giving your neighbor out $50,000 the evil eye?
I certainly have moral and I honestly think you would be in the moral wrong to denegrade your neighbor and let the bank go free. Furthermore, unless my neighbors are coming to my aid in my time of need, I would expect them to not complain when I cannot afford my home any more. It seems like thats between them and the bank.
July 17, 2009 — 9:38 am
Sean Purcell says:
Michael,
This is really finance 101 type stuff. That’s your second dismissive insult to those who disagree with you on this thread (“Lets start thinking with our minds” was the first.) Your logical points are more than engaging. The little pieces of mud slinging might go over better in someone else’s sandbox.
Banks require a down payment to cover their perceived downside risk. The higher the down payment the lower the risk. Banks charge interest to cover more than the lost opportunity cost of money. The rate of return is directly tied to the assessed risk. Down payment also mitigates risk in that it minimizes exposure.
For all those people financially in the dark above that wondered why banks should not participate in the upside, its simple
I don’t believe anyone above was “in the dark.” It was simply being pointed out that your contention makes no sense. Banks in fact do not participate in the upside, yet they are full participants in the downside given your argument. It may not be a dollar for dollar, technical participation as you state, but they are most certainly participating. Let’s take a more realistic example than the 5% decline you used. Let’s assume a 40% decline. The borrower has lost their entire investment (10% of the purchase price in your scenario). But the bank has eaten 30% of the original purchase price (or one third of their investment). So percentage wise, you are technically correct. The borrower lost more. But actual, bottom line, cash-wise the bank participated a lot more in the down side. If you walked into the lender and said: “Here’s $40,000, I’m putting 10% down on this house. But I’m telling you right now, if this house loses more than 10%, I’m going to walk as my interest in this is done.” (Leaving alone the whole concept of your obligation for this example). “Any losses beyond that and you will continue to incur lost opportunity costs on the money you lent me (which I will no longer be covering) AND you will be responsible for legally acquiring title from me, maintaining the vacant property and effecting the sell. Oh, by the way, you will also eat any and all losses beyond my initial investment if this happens; but if the property goes up in value… well, that’s all gravy to me. You get none of it. One more thing, if the cost of money goes up or your lost opportunity costs increase… well, I certainly hope you’ve already accounted for that in your interest rate and fees because I’m not taking on any of that responsibility either. One last thing: I’m not going to read any of the documentation you give me. If it turns out that even with you taking all the risk and my limit being the down payment, you have given me a loan that I later decide is ill suited to me, I’m going to expect you to lower your rate of return or forgive some of the debt.”
My question to you, the question I’ve asked all along, is this: have the lenders already priced all of that into the loan or did they set prices and rates of return based on the implications of Brian’s historical truth that borrowers felt a moral compunction to pay their bills?
July 17, 2009 — 10:11 am
Sean Purcell says:
Help me understand why I have any obligation to my neighbors at all? Do they help me pay my mortgage when I cannot? Do they share in my financial losses on my mortgage? Where is my moral obligation to them?… unless my neighbors are coming to my aid in my time of need, I would expect them to not complain when I cannot afford my home any more. It seems like that’s between them and the bank.
I’ve never been much for Senator Clinton’s “It takes a village,” but: Holy Crap Batman!! I’m with Teri: please clearly designate the boundaries of your community so I can stay far, far away. (And don’t be trying to come over and steal any of our baseball or apple pie either!) 🙂
July 17, 2009 — 10:23 am
Brian Stockwell says:
Good stuff Michael!
Sean
“the question I’ve asked all along, is this: have the lenders already priced all of that into the loan”
-My gut/intuition says lenders have, they assume borrows will default if it is in there best interest to do so; they forecast for what they believe will be the default rate (on many variables, moral compunction not one of them), and price those forecasted numbers into their mortgage rates. They just didn’t think it would get this bad (or maybe they did…let’s hear some of those conspiracies Sean, inquiring minds want to know). I’ll hold to my opinion until someone steps up and answers your question.
Since we do not have the facts here yet, what does your gut say Sean? Have the lenders already priced all of that into the loan”?
July 17, 2009 — 10:40 am
Brian Stockwell says:
I can just see the moral compunction algorithm now…
Where +1 (stats, surveys, ratings) = -1 (consumer moral compunction), where -1 (stats, surveys, ratings) = +1 (consumer moral compunction), where +100 = .001% increase in mortgage rate, where -100 = .001% decrease in mortgage rate.
MTV ratings increase year over year +1
Study shows more kids play video games over sports +1
Good Samaritan heroic actions dominate the news for two months -1
Religulous box office debut exceeds 50 million +1
Internet porn viewing increases 10% +1
Front page of the NY Times reads ‘GOD IS ALIVE’ -1
Etc…
Bob: Hey Jim, did you see the CMCI (Consumer Moral Compunction Index) rating? It’s up +783, we are going to have to raise rates pretty soon.
Jim: Yea, we need another Good Samaritan story or somethin’.
July 17, 2009 — 10:51 am
Jeff Brown says:
Much of this discussion wouldn’t even have occurred as a possibility a generation or more ago. Ask yourselves — when asked to loan money to someone, do you ‘factor’ in what you perceive as their moral compass? Don’t answer, it’s rhetorical. 🙂
I apologize in advance if I offend anyone, but frankly some of the comments here (and no, I will not ID them) are more than a little frightening. They indicate, or at least lead me to infer, their brand of morality is relative in nature. How sad is that for our country, our kids, our future?
The foundation of almost everything we do in business is our perception of the existence of the common denominator of moral beliefs. Think not?
Haven’t you ever refused to do business with someone due to your belief in their unsavory character? You bet your ass you have. That was a business decision based upon your evaluation of their ‘moral compunction’ to actually follow through on promises made. You factored in your perception of their moral beliefs. Go figure.
I do business, as do many of you, with folks from different states and different cultures.
If I’m not making judgments on their moral character as part of my business process, that makes me an idiot, and I deserve the consequences. For some I realize they’ll follow the contract to the letter, but will exploit any crack in the wall to their advantage, regardless of the morality involved. For a select few I’ve been happy as a clam to enter into important agreements via nothing more than a handshake and locking eyes.
Morality isn’t part of the process? NASA has yet to create the instrument capable of measuring the depth of ignorance in that statement.
To answer Sean’s question — I believe whatever models have been used by lenders or are being used now have inside them the flat out assumption of a moral belief on both sides. That is, the borrower believes the lender’s promises are ‘backed’ by the same moral belief the borrower holds about his contractual promises.
Sean — this has been an incredibly instructive thread as it relates to perceptions of morality and its place in American business practice.
July 17, 2009 — 11:26 am
Brian Brady says:
“By the time you default on your mortgage you are probably tapped out from an asset standpoint”
One would think…but the study Sean cites argues that one in four borrowers are defaulting who are NOT tapped out. That’s the conundrum for those of us who have originated and/or traded whole loans; it’s aberrant behavior from the historical pricing model.
“This is really finance 101 type stuff.”
Ahhh, to be young and in NYC. I remember those days well.
July 17, 2009 — 11:29 am
Michael Cook says:
“This is really finance 101 type stuff.”
Sorry if this was dismissive, it was not intended to be. It was really intended to say that this is not just my opinion but rather pretty standard and accepted opinions in finance. When I get an idea, I just let my thoughts flow. I do not intend to be dimissive or belittle anyone. Sorry to anyone that took it that way.
July 17, 2009 — 11:38 am
Michael Cook says:
Sean,
“Any losses beyond that and you will continue to incur lost opportunity costs on the money you lent me (which I will no longer be covering) AND you will be responsible for legally acquiring title from me, maintaining the vacant property and effecting the sell. Oh, by the way, you will also eat any and all losses beyond my initial investment if this happens; but if the property goes up in value… well, that’s all gravy to me. You get none of it. One more thing, if the cost of money goes up or your lost opportunity costs increase… well, I certainly hope you’ve already accounted for that in your interest rate and fees because I’m not taking on any of that responsibility either.”
Yes, this is exactly what is priced into the loan. Because this is exactly how the long documents are written. Banks have no other remedies and therefore must price this exact situation into every loan. Its what I do every day. If I cant write it into a loan document, I dont price it into my loan. I cant write a clause that says you have to continue to pay an underwater mortgage, so I will price it assuming you wont. Banks are not people, they calculate risk rationally. Its irrational to assume a person will continue to pay a loan that is worth less than the underlying collateral, so banks should assume they wont pay and price that in.
The rest of the stuff you talked about is not moral, but rather the pure lunacy that is our society at the moment. You cant price that in.
July 17, 2009 — 11:46 am
Michael Cook says:
Brian S., you are one funny man.
July 17, 2009 — 11:49 am
Brian Brady says:
“Sorry to anyone that took it that way.”
We’re good.
July 17, 2009 — 11:58 am
Michael Cook says:
Jeff,
You make a few mistakes in your comment. First, a contract between two people is very different than a contract between a mortgage borrower and a lender. If I lend money to my brother, a friend, a co-worker, etc., I dont use a contract because he/she should have a moral obligation to pay me back. If I enter into a partnership, I have every right to choose my partner based on their strong moral character and I have a duty of moral compunction to them. Again, these relationships are made amongst equals, who understand the risk and have aligned incentives.
On the other hand, if I make a contract with a party that has no moral obligation to me, it would seem silly to create a moral obligation to that party. A bank will foreclose on me when ever it is in their best interest. Case closed. When values have gone way down and banks dont want the property back, they seems so friendly and willing to work with you. However, as soon as property values start to increase, banks will be eager to move your items out on the street with out shedding a moral tear.
Why should I behave any differently with this party? Why should I be faulted for doing exactly what they do to me? When times are good, I should work hard to pay them back, but when times are bad, I should make a sound financial decision. I am doing EXACTLY what they are doing, nothing different.
In a partnership, my partner and I may have a contract, but we also understand each others individual needs. Perhaps my partner cant come up with his full share of the equity because he wife just got sick. I cover him because I know he would do the same for me.
Lest, someone say, “Morality is not a quid pro quo situation,” I would suggest to you when dealing with business and a bank, it most certiainly is. In other aspects in life altruism is respected and should be honored. In business, especially in mortgages, it seems downright crazy to me.
I will caveat this. There are some community banks that do a very good job of working with borrowers. In these areas many borrowers do feel a moral compunction to pay. I have worked with these kind of banks and they have significantly less foreclosures.
So to Jeff Brown, dont blame me, blame the banks that work with me.
July 17, 2009 — 12:07 pm
Michael Cook says:
“I’ve never been much for Senator Clinton’s “It takes a village,” but: Holy Crap Batman!! I’m with Teri: please clearly designate the boundaries of your community so I can stay far, far away. (And don’t be trying to come over and steal any of our baseball or apple pie either!)”
Ouch… I think you meant dont be stealing your Vodka and fur coats my communist brethern. Apple pie and baseball will be thriving in my capitalist community.
July 17, 2009 — 12:27 pm
Brian Stockwell says:
Jeff,
Most that come here are big boys and girls and probably will not be offended by your opinions. It’s good to hear varying opinions/beliefs/views; it helps us explore within ourselves what we believe, where we stand. I like learning, and I like my beliefs to be challenged, helps be change/grow or confirms what I believe. Really enjoy reading your posts here, keep it up!
A question to all…Do we have a free market economy? If we do, the moral onus would probably be on the consumer (particularly the strategic walkawayites) in this crisis; if we do not, and if information was withheld from the marketplace, then the moral onus (if not outright fraud/theft) is on the financial institutions (and Government). If this is the case I can understand why homeowners (who now despise, yet are secretly jealous of the walkawayites) are pissed off because their equity is gone and not coming back for a long time; and ex-homeowners (who are ashamed, embarrassed, and openly jealous of the homeowners who had better timing (OK, or made better decisions) than they in their home purchase) are pissed off because they feel they goy swindled (and yes, probably realize they made very poor decisions), their credit is trashed, and they have a long (maybe) time until they can buy (many things, not just a home) again.
And can someone explain to me how fractional reserve banking plays a role in all of this (to off topic?)? Are banks really lending their money (savings from production, gift, or…)? Or are they lending house (the consumer’s) money?
July 17, 2009 — 12:33 pm
Sean Carr says:
Sean,
Well we’ve been discussing allot of interesting things so sorry for straying off topic.
“I’m slowly learning from this comment thread that there are actually very, very few non-recourse loans in this nation”
I had thought CA, FL and AZ were all non-recourse states via state law. Maybe someone in there areas can fill in a little more detail. If the majorities are recourse how can people with the ability to pay walk away? In a little confused on this now.
“Why would they do business with you if you’re under “no obligation” to repay? More importantly, what does that have to do with mortgages?”
I was trying to make a point that moral behavior is often discussed in the context of mortgages but viewed as primarily a business decision with other types of securities. I also tried to formulate an example that would compete with something as absurd as a NINJA loan. “Why would they do business?” Well I’d have to add to the example that they had no intention of keeping my margin loan, rather they looked to book profits up front and sell it in MBS fashion with an AAA rating. That’s why.
“If borrowers decide to abandon their obligations, how much of their rights and individual power should they expect to lose also?”
Threes no easy answer. But I believe we need to frame the discussion from the top down and not the bottom up to make progress on that point. We still have CDS being traded with no underlying cash market which to me, by definition, makes them only a product for speculation. There’s the whole debacle with just about everything else an MBS touched. I just can’t get my head around an individual’s obligation to a system that is fundamentally curdled.
Brian
“The author asks if we adopt such a loan program, will the pricing (loan terms) change because we’ve moved away from a loan that requires the borrower to “stake his reputation” as additional “collateral”.”
I would think that the loans would be priced cheaper if we asked people to “stake their money” instead of “stake their reputation”. Of course the events of the past years would tell me that I’m wrong. I thought loans were priced way too cheaply before 2006. The market, and I’ll admit that I can no longer differentiate the FED from the market, has responded by lowering rates to price risk even cheaper.
I’m not in the market to buy but perhaps someone can tell me if FHA loans at 3.5% down are really available.
July 17, 2009 — 12:34 pm
Sean Purcell says:
Michael,
You’re cracking me up. BTW, love the idea that baseball will thrive in your community. So how does that work: I assume roughly half the community will be needed to umpire each game… do they take turns with the other half: playing/umping, umping/playing: nine teams of one playing on the same field? 🙂
Love the discussion Michael. Always a pleasure…
July 17, 2009 — 12:38 pm
Brian Stockwell says:
I love this one…
“Much of this discussion wouldn’t even have occurred as a possibility a generation or more ago.”
The generations that have allowed our country to move towards fascism and socialism have their panties in a wad because some people are now walking away from their homes. Good one.
Brings to mind…Luke 6:42.
July 17, 2009 — 12:48 pm
Jeff Brown says:
Brian — Excellent! The only editorial luxury I’d allow myself is the observation the ‘beam’ isn’t lodged in their eye. 🙂
July 17, 2009 — 12:57 pm
Brian Brady says:
“I’m not in the market to buy but perhaps someone can tell me if FHA loans at 3.5% down are really available.”
Amerisave is advertising 3/1 FHA ARMs at 3.75 (on Bankrate.com) but I’ve not seen them available below 4.5%.
July 17, 2009 — 1:40 pm
Brian Stockwell says:
Sean, yes, FHA with 3.5% down are available (and popular). Brian is quoting you rates above.
July 17, 2009 — 2:27 pm
Teri L says:
Michael-
I’m not more concerned with neighborhoods. You said that no one gets hurt by you walking away, and I’m pointing out that people do get hurt. Do what you want- it’s legal. Just don’t do it thinking that no one is getting hurt.
I’m blaming everyone for this, but that in no way means I want either the government or banks, both FUBAR, to fix it. Every solution I’ve offered up puts the power elsewhere. You rejected the community pressure idea. Plan B is that banks should cough up the stats, and that puts power into the hands of individuals. Either solution would be effective, keeps institutions out of it, lets you do business as usual, lets other people do their thing. …blah blah blah… Anyway, I’m sure in the nearly 100 comments offered, there have been a myriad of better ideas than either of mine.
July 17, 2009 — 2:37 pm
Michael Cook says:
“What would you say to this statement: it is understood that the lender does not actually want the house and the borrower does not actually want to lose the house and loan pricing is based on that assumption?”
Forgot about this one. I would say that banks would much rather have consumers pay their loans and if this was a guarantee, then loan pricing would be the same as treasuries. The additional interest charge makes up for the expected percentage of people who will ultimately default and the cost associated with foreclosing.
July 20, 2009 — 3:02 pm
Sean Purcell says:
Michael,
Glad you’re back! I know Teri didn’t want to be the final word on this comment string. I’m pretty sure we’ve hit an impasse here, but I’ll try this: do you think most lenders expect the homebuyer to keep the collateral in good condition? It may be spelled out to some degree in the loan docs, but is it actually priced into the loan? It is simply understood that they will. In an appreciating market it makes sense to as well. But what about a depreciating market. Why should the homeowner do basic maintenance? And if they do defer all maintenance, the collateral for the loan is eventually deeply degraded. If this became common place, do you think the lenders would adjust their rates to account for this relatively new (and negative) development?
I’m not saying they’d stop doing loans. Only that they would probably look to adjust their rates to account for this recent development that hurts their rate of return on defaulting loans. In the same way, the number of people choosing a “strategic” walk-away is relatively new and unexpected. It goes without saying that it is hurting their rate of return.
You have made clear that the contracts you write, price and evaluate do not take moral compunction into account. I understand that and from what I can see, I agree. Just like investor loans are written with different rules and rates. When you are dealing with professionals (such as yourself) it is caveat emptor and all bets are off. But it is not (and has not been) that way with residential, owner occupied homes (again, the source of the study that began this).
July 20, 2009 — 3:45 pm
Brian Brady says:
100 comments? It’s ActiveHound.com
July 20, 2009 — 6:58 pm
Michael Cook says:
“But what about a depreciating market. Why should the homeowner do basic maintenance?”
This speaks to the alignment of interest. Regardless of the market, I have to live in my home. While the city has laws to maintain a certain basic standard of living every home must afford and thereby ensure some basic level of home maintenance, most people have a standard of living that they like to maintain. By maintaining this, they maintain the property.
Even in a depreciating market, I dont like to sleep under a leaky roof. Regardless of the market, I want to be in a safe, secure space, so I will do so upkeep. Perhaps I wont add that swanky new bathroom, but its never in my best interest not to do minimal maintenance to the house.
Long answer to say banks price in borrowers returning their home in substandard, but livable condition. Banks never expect to sell at market prices. Obviously, by the time the borrower defaults on the loan they will have significant amounts of deferred maintenance. If they could fix the windows, they would probably pay the mortgage instead, no?
July 21, 2009 — 8:59 am
Michael Cook says:
“the number of people choosing a “strategic” walk-away is relatively new and unexpected.”
I think you mistate this. The strategic walk-aways were not unexpected, but rather, it was the rapid decline in the market that was unexpected. Strategic-walk aways are only a new issue because property values have been going up for so long that it just never made sense.
When was the last time real estate prices declined, let alone, declined at this rapid a pace. During previous downturns I would be willing to bet strategic walk aways were still around. It makes too much economic sense for it not to be a factor.
July 21, 2009 — 10:38 am
Smithers says:
Sorry to have read this post and comments so late in the dialogue. While I did not read all the comments word for word, I’d have to say Michael Cook is right-on. A mortgage is a contract. Nothing more. Very simple. Breach the contract, pay the penalty for breach (foreclosure and credit ding; maybe recourse depending on the particular mortgage contract and the law of the state, all known up front before anyone signs and takes any money).
To the extent others are “hurt” because of their neighbor defaults on his mortgage, that means the “others” were relying on a house of cards to begin with.
July 22, 2009 — 6:43 pm