Michael DiMella wrote the remarks quoted below in a comment, but I’ve extracted them and my responses to him into a separate post.
The meta issue is this: Is the NAR a criminal conspiracy against consumers, and, whether or not it is, is there nothing else good about it?
Michael DiMella: > you seem to have a thorough unwillingness to learn what NAR actually is and does.
That’s astoundingly false. I have written more about the NAR’s criminality than anyone, ever. You may not want to focus on that, but criminality is NAR’s sole reason for being. Everything else it might do is window dressing devised to fool the public — and gullible patsies within the NAR.
> That doesn’t make you a bad guy, but I, for one, would appreciate a modicum of respect.
Good grief. I will offer you and the NAR the oath of respect Fiorello LaGuardia paid to a similar criminal mob when he was inaugurated as Mayor of New York: “E finita la cuccagna!” (“No more free lunch!”)
> To [eliminate mortgage interest deductibility without comprehensively revising the tax code] would be careless and have a major negative impact on a majority of Americans.
False. The deductibility of mortgage interest is a handout to the rich. I’m opposed to all taxation, but it is absurd to argue that the wealthiest Americans cannot afford to bear their own economic weight. In any case, as is discussed below, using tax policy to favor one group over another, thus artificially to churn the markets, is vicious and wrong no matter who is hurt or helped.
The next argument would be that, in a condition of pressure-group warfare, to lay down arms is suicidal. That’s as may be, but, in order to make this argument, you must first argue that there can be circumstances in which you feel yourself justified in expropriating other people’s property — stealing, that is — for your own benefit. Are you an advocate of theft? Did I hear you say something about wanting respect?
> I would say NAR’s support of the MID is well intentioned to protect consumers
The sole purpose of the mostly mythical idea of mortgage interest deductibility is to churn the real estate markets, to cause people to buy and sell more real estate more often than they would in the absence of a specious tax benefit almost nobody gets. The only beneficiaries of mortgage interest deductibility are the real estate brokers and salespeople (and other industry hangers-on), who get to collect unwarranted commissions ensuing from this artificially churned-up real estate market.
> but many economists agree the only way we prevented this recession from getting much worse was spending and more spending
Also an obvious lie. This recession was caused by the NAR and its churning of the real estate markets, this more than any other causative factor.
> It’s nothing but a policy disagreement you may have, not a criminal act by NAR.
Theft is always wrong, no matter how you dress it up, and no matter how many witch doctors you hire to sanctify it. Theft from innocent children is particularly vile.
> if you ever get to be a very large organization
I have zero interest in any sort of organization. Honest men have no need to run in gangs. The NAR formed itself as a criminal gang precisely because its motives were and are dishonest. As you yourself are an honest man, I will expect to see you move in my direction over time. If you remain aligned with the NAR, you will very likely become a more adept apologist for theft. Your business either way.
Quoted below is an extract from a post I wrote about mortgage interest deductibility earlier this year:
The idea of mortgage interest deductibility is the key argument in the almost-always bogus rent vs. buy debate. Putative deductibility provides supposed cash benefits right now — and it promotes the investment value of your home.
Sit still for a moment. Take a few deep breaths. Forget everything about our current political and economic context and then tell me in twenty-five words or fewer why relatively fungible non-commercial real estate should ever be thought of as an investment. Do you think of your clothing as an investment? Do you anticipate a big cash payday for your knocked-around production-line mini-van?
We’ve been stupid for a long, long time, but not without cause. The NAR has told us for decades that we get a mortgage interest deduction, even though almost nobody does. They told us it was worth serious dough, even though it wasn’t. And they told us it turned our homes into investments, even though treating our homes as investments has resulted in massive over-building, massive over-lending, massive defaults, massive foreclosures and a massive clusterfrolic in the residential real estate business.
Who is at fault? Who claims credit for the idea of mortgage interest deductibility? The National Association of Realtors.
Two paragraphs ago you were thinking about reality and not just the news, so let’s try to make a habit of it. Suppose the car dealers in your state passed a law that put an excise tax on every vehicle — owned, financed or leased. But they also passed a law that let the drivers of financed vehicles deduct their interest payments from their excise tax bill. If you bought your car on credit, you might stand up and shout, “It’s a great day to be a Rotarian Socialist!” But if you lease or own your car — or if you own a fleet of trucks — you might not be so happy.
A tax system like that is obviously unjust — and its underlying motivation should be equally obvious: To get more people to buy more cars more often than they otherwise would.
This is also the motivation behind the putative deductibility of mortgage interest. People who own their own homes free and clear are being robbed, as are people who rent, but not even the mortgagee is the true beneficiary. The law is written for the benefit of Realtors — and lenders — who can talk you into buying more house than you otherwise would, trading houses more often than you otherwise would, all with the promise of a tax deduction that you almost certainly will not get, and which won’t amount to anything even if you do.
And that is why the NAR must wail so balefully that the deduction of mortgage interest is sacred and must not be touched — because it’s a sleazy scam for churning the real estate markets, and, if anything changes, there’s a chance that someone might catch on to the con game.
I’m talking to everyone who is still reading, not just to Michael. I do not have any doubt that the NAR is a criminal organization, but if you do, I want you to help you see my side of this issue.
The National Association of Realtors was formed as a cartel. Its original objective was to get laws passed in state legislatures to make it unlawful for otherwise honest people to broker real estate transactions for compensation. These were the original real estate licensing laws, and they were all written by the NAR. The purpose of all occupational licensing laws is to increase the compensation paid to licensees at the expense of consumers. In other words, the NAR has been a criminal conspiracy against consumers since its inception.
There are two side issues here. First, in order to usurp advantages for its members, at the expense of the general public, the NAR had to blow its horn about the vitally important role occupational licensing plays in providing consumer protection. As we all know, and as some of us are willing to admit even in full daylight, exactly the opposite is the case: Licensing lends the color of competence and legality to all manner of boobs and crooks. In this respect, occupational licensing is surely worse than nothing, since consumers are gulled into the belief that the license actually means something, rather than serving as camouflage for a much larger crime.
Still worse, since the NAR outlawed unlicensed brokerage for compensation, it will soon have the embarrassing task of trying to outlaw unlicensed real estate brokers who choose to work for free. Who might those be? How about the ad-supported Realty.bots? They’re already introducing borrowers to lenders for free. How much longer before someone starts introducing buyers to sellers without collecting any compensation for the introduction? When this happens, the NAR’s drawers will be all the way down. It will be fun to watch its apologists then.
There’s more. As we have discussed here many times, the NAR’s main focus, by now, is influencing legislation at all levels of government to churn the real estate markets. Whatever the consumer’s interests might be, the NAR’s interest, always, is to induce more people to buy and sell more real estate — sooner rather than later. If it were the NAR’s function to promote the sale of after-market car stereos, it would lobby for leniency for petty criminals!
If you work in real estate, you may think it’s somehow a good thing for the NAR to churn up more and more transactions. But as is discussed above, every bit of this churning is effected by acts of theft, by stealing from one innocent person in order to confer unearned wealth upon another. The $8,000 tax credit is not a credit against the home-buyer’s taxes. It’s an unearned cash gift stolen from every taxpayer who doesn’t get one. Still worse, since the United States’ government is broke, the funds are being stolen from future taxpayers — your children and grandchildren.
To say, “I support the NAR,” you must first be prepared to say, “I am in favor of enslaving innocent children so that I can have some unearned treats today.”
You must be prepared to say, “I am in favor of forbidding otherwise innocent people from earning a living however they choose.”
You must be prepared to say, “I think pushing innocent people around at gunpoint is a good thing, provided it benefits me.”
To say, “I support the NAR,” you must be willing to say, “I am proud to be a thief, proud to enrich myself at the expense of my neighbors and my own children, proud to beggar an entire nation of once-free people — provided I get mine!”
If you’re willing to say things like that, you’re hardly alone. Socialism is a philosophy of brigands, and Rotarian Socialism is the philosophy of the NAR.
But if you are not a thief, why would you ever issue apologies for thievery? Why would you permit a criminal gang like the NAR to sully your good name?
I know that no one has ever explained these issues to you in this way before. But now that I have, you have to make a choice.
You can say, “Yeah, but,” and then proceed to make ever-more-ludicrous excuses for ever-more-vicious crimes.
Or you can hide behind you hand and pretend that there is no need to do anything so off-putting as taking a side — as the cannibal vampire dinosaurs in the NAR devour your neighbors — and then your children — and then you.
Or you can stand up on your hind legs and bellow, “Not in my name, damn you!”
I live very comfortably in a world of absolutes, so there is no strain for me in writing treatises like this one. But one of the penalties you pay for reading me, and for reading me all the way to the end, is that I rob you of your middle — of your mights and your maybes. You spend your days peering through of fog of vague generalities, and then you go and ruin it all by showing up here!
It doesn’t matter to me what you do now. I’ll supplant the NAR with your help or without it. But it very definitely matters to you what you do about this. I’ve robbed you of the ability to make excuses for the NAR’s fundamental evil. You’ll do what you do, going forward, and that’s your business. But you will never forget this essay, never forget that you know all the way down to your bones that the NAR is a criminal conspiracy against the consumer — against your neighbors, against your children, against you.
Here’s what I think I want to say, just for now: “No more free lunch!”
Brian Brady says:
Isn’t it a natural goal of a private business concern to dominate a market to the point of monopoly? If so, how is what the NAR does criminal or aren’t they just doing what comes naturally?
Let me give you an example. If you could introduce a system, that reduces costs to the consumer, but guarantees you a monopolistic toll for every transaction, wouldn’t it be natural for you to lobby the State, to legislate what was in the best interests of your shared constituency (consumers)?
May 19, 2009 — 10:03 pm
Greg Swann says:
> how is what the NAR does criminal
What the NAR does is criminal because it deploys force and the threat of force to coerce people innocent of all wrong-doing.
The state is force. To use force to forbid people from doing as they choose is criminal. To use force to compel them to do as they otherwise would not is criminal.
To say that crime comes naturally to human beings seems to me to be a particularly dour interpretation of the doctrine of original sin! In any case, “Nature is what we are put on this earth to rise above.”
May 19, 2009 — 10:11 pm
Broker Bryant says:
Well I have to ageree with Brian on this one. I may not like everything the NAR does but I certainly don’t see them as “criminal”. Idiots? yes. But criminal? no.
And Greg aren’t you a REALTOR(R)? And if so then didn’t you willingly join the mob? If I felt as strongly as you did I would withdraw my membership immediately. And why have the REALTOR(R) logo on your signs?
Certainly nothing wrong with your strong opinion of NAR but why contradict yourself and be a criminal yourself?
I just don’t get it.
May 20, 2009 — 4:28 am
Greg Swann says:
> I may not like everything the NAR does but I certainly don’t see them as “criminal”.
People who use force against innocent people to obtain lucre are criminals. Words have meanings.
> And Greg aren’t you a REALTOR(R)?
In order to have access to the Arizona Regional Multiple Listings Service, I am required to belong to the Phoenix Association of Realtors, the Arizona Association of Realtors and the National Association of Realtors. Make of that what you will.
May 20, 2009 — 6:32 am
Michael DiMella says:
Greg, quite frankly, some of your metaphors are simply delusional (no offense, but they are) so I know my words won’t sway you. But I do hope any others reading this will take a moment to think about what you write and just ask, “why?”.
We can have policy debates about MID all day (and if you posted my entire comment rather than cherry picking phrases, you could see where I really stand on that). But, simply: NAR’s support of the MID and the home buyer credit (among a host of other things) is policy opinion, not “criminal” activity. As I said there are many people and economists who agree with these policies (also some who don’t, of course). So how does that make NAR “criminals” committing “vicious crimes”?
Booms and busts have always been and will always be part of our economic cycles – if you want to blame NAR for this bust cycle, fine. But I think it’s clear that we could also easily blame 99.9% of the country – from the government, to the banks, to the public, to the fed, EVERYBODY – who didn’t have the foresight to put the breaks on the housing market. If you were part of the handful of people who were trying to slow down the boom cycle at the time, good on you. But somehow I doubt that given you are part of the real estate industry, like it or not.
As for the licensing laws – I don’t know what it’s like in your state but in my state – BARBERS are required to get their licence to cut my hair! And there are maybe 25 other state license required jobs in Massachusetts. Do they have a cabal “increasing their fees by requiring a license”?
You’re right Greg, I try to be honest – and you can read my entire comment from the previous post to see that – but I do not operate in a world of absolutes (or use disingenuous and hyperbolic metaphors to try to prove my points). I doubt you are robbing me or anyone else of my “middle”, and in fact, you are probably just pushing yourself to the fringe. That’s your prerogative of course, but that very rarely leads to the change you say you want.
And I agree with Broker Bryant, I don’t know that you are in fact, but if you are using Realtor trademarks and branding…..why? Is that not sullying your good name?
May 20, 2009 — 6:06 am
Greg Swann says:
> delusional
> disingenuous
> hyperbolic
> fringe
These are all ad hominem remarks, attempts to sway the audience by characterizing the opposing argument. There were others in your comment last night, and while I’m letting these stand, I wanted to put you on notice that they are violations of our comments policy. You can make any affirmative argument you want. You cannot attempt to prevail by smearing your opponent.
> NAR’s support of the MID and the home buyer credit (among a host of other things) is policy opinion, not “criminal” activity.
Incorrect. As I pointed out, and as is plainly obvious, everything the NAR does in legislatures large and small is devoted to churning the real estate markets. If this is news to you, it were well for you to spend a day or two looking at bill after bill, rather than trying to deny it. It is undeniable.
> So how does that make NAR “criminals” committing “vicious crimes”?
Because the NAR is using the overwhelming power of the state to coerce people into doing things they otherwise would not do, all in pursuit of its own pecuniary advantages. People who use force against innocent people to obtain lucre are criminals. Words have meanings.
Here’s a much better argument, if you want to apologize for evil: “Well, hell’s bells! Everybody else is doing it, too!” That’s the logical fallacy known as tu quoque, and no advocate of crime should ever be without it. In fact, our entire system of government is based on the kinds of theft the NAR perpetuates every day. That’s sad, and it’s sadder still that the NAR was one of the pioneers of Rotarian Socialism. But that doesn’t make any of it right. Stealing from other people, no matter how fast you tapdance, and no matter how many witch doctors are tapdancing along with you, is a crime. Words have meanings.
> And there are maybe 25 other state license required jobs in Massachusetts. Do they have a cabal “increasing their fees by requiring a license”?
A good many more than 25. Have you done any investigation of this at all? The motivating force behind all occupational licensing laws is the industry that is to be “regulated” by those laws. The purpose, invariably, is to raise prices by limiting competition. This is well established fact. Who invented this clever method of using force against innocent people to obtain lucre? The National Association of Realtors.
Alike unto virtually everyone, I don’t think you know anything at all about the NAR. That’s a characterization of your argument, I realize, but I think it’s also a reflection of fact.
May 20, 2009 — 6:57 am
Bill Ruppert says:
The solution to overly weak licensing requirements is… no licensing?
May 20, 2009 — 6:33 am
Greg Swann says:
> The solution to overly weak licensing requirements is… no licensing?
Competition for reputation. It’s how we’re going to supplant the NAR, licensing laws be damned.
Teri Lussier wrote a wonderful post about competition for reputation in real estate.
May 20, 2009 — 7:14 am
Michael DiMella says:
Fair enough. I apologize for any violations of your comment policy. I was not intending to smear you at all, in fact I respect you raising these issues because it leads to a healthy discussion, BUT I was trying to characterize your arguments (not you personally) as not being grounded in fact.
Secondly, I was only responding to your smears of me (maybe not directly, but certainly by association since I am a participating member of NAR) with these gems:
“clueless morons”
“criminal cartel”
“NAR mandarins”
“cannibals”
But we both know that insults get us nowhere, so back to the point:
“I don’t think you know anything at all about NAR” – Since you basically state that you are the only one who knows about NAR, where does your level of knowledge come from? Through what lens?
Another quick correction: The Division of Professional Licensure in Massachusetts list 32 professions (I apologize for saying 25 off the top of my head).
But with or without licensing laws, don’t we still have “competition for reputation”? Is having to take 12, 24, or 100 hours of licensing class (or whatever your state requires) really stifling competition? What are there, nearly 1.8 – 2 million licensed real estate agents throughout the country from what I last heard? For only 5 – 7 million transactions per year? That seems to be a very competitive economic scenario to me. I hardly can see how licensing has prevented those who want to enter the business to enter and compete.
You’re clearly a smart guy (and do well for your clients), but I think if you step back from this hatred of NAR, and look at things from a slightly different angle, you’ll come away with a different opinion.
Are things perfect? Of course not. Could/should there be some changes? Certainly. Change is inevitable in EVERY aspect of life and our society. But as you said yourself, “You can make any affirmative argument you want. You cannot attempt to prevail by smearing your opponent.”. So I ask you stop smearing NAR and offer affirmative solutions or options to change the things you don’t like.
May 20, 2009 — 7:49 am
Michael Cook says:
Oddly enough, I agree with Greg on this one. The NAR frames itself as a consumer advocate, when in actual reality, it is possibly the most detrimental consumer advocate since Bernie Madoff.
Like the cigarette industry, they hold our government hostage with money, brides and outright lies. I am sure no one has tracked the lies and other BS that came out of the NAR as the real estate market came crashing down. Their optimism borders on crimal fraud in my opinion. How can you tell a homeowner to buy a home when they live in Florida in 2007/2008. What kind of fair representation is that.
If realtors and the NAR are consumer friendly, they say, its not a good time to buy unless you absolutely have to. Do they do that, no, rather their chief economist spins more lies and dupes unsuspecting consumers into buying more homes. For the record, they send people in my industry to jail for doing that exact thing.
While I do not believe most unions or organizations like the NAR are criminal by nature (certainly ineffecient and unnecessary, but not criminal) perhaps like Greg, but the NAR has done some extremely questionable acts with regards to how they handle consumers and consumer information. Their monopoly is bad for everyone, especially their realtors, but they are too short sighted to see it.
May 20, 2009 — 7:59 am
Teri L says:
I agree with Greg as well, although, it does make me squirm to see the NAR described as criminal. On the other hand, to my bones, as Greg would say, or to the core of my being, as I would say, much of the way the trade organizations are designed… Well. It is rather criminal, isn’t it?
Accidentally or inadvertently or unintentionally doesn’t matter, does it? Being ignorant of, or blind to the nature of the beast does not change the nature of beast.
May 20, 2009 — 9:34 am
Geno Petro says:
I’ll make it even simpler. The fact that I am forced to pay dues to belong to CAR & NAR or else I can’t negotiate a real estate transaction in the state of Illinois—-even though I am licensed, my bi-annual fees are paid, and all CE is current—-feels a little like extortion to me. And…
I’m not sure what you call selling consumer info but I’m not too keen on that either.
(and oh…I thought NAR mandarin was rather polite.)
May 20, 2009 — 11:42 am
Joe Loomer says:
“Silence Implies Consent….”
Greg – your post gave me great pause, and I read through to the end, then I read it again, and then once more.
Don’t remember the source, but the quote (not sure if I’ve got this right, but close enough) “Nothing is wrong with America that cannot be solved by what is right with America” came to mind.
You’re suckling at the same teat you hate, Oedipus. Blasting NAR and then saying you’re required to be a member to get MLS access just means you’re still somewhat fraudulent in your views – find another trade fer cryin out loud. Seems to me you’re buying and selling Real Estate as a profession just means you’re doing the very thing the NAR got you compensation for in the first place. Do you believe you’re defrauding your own clients when you get paid for cryin’ out loud?
Never been a big NAR fan – I do not believe they are truly the non-profit organization that is supposed to “exist solely for the benefit of it’s members.”
On another note – agree wholeheartedly about tax deduction stuff. Getting back a portion of what you put in is still not a net gain, it’s a net loss, it just sucks less – even if you do meet the income standards to deduct the interest in the first place.
Not sure NAR’s run by the cast of the Sopranos, but the whole MIBOR/Paula Henry deal has me checking under my bed in the mornings.
Navy Chief, Navy Pride
May 21, 2009 — 5:09 am
Greg Swann says:
> you’re doing the very thing the NAR got you compensation for in the first place.
You’ve missed the point, Joe. Many people were being compensated for brokering real estate before the NAR turned the business into a cartel, fewer afterward. The NAR didn’t get compensation for Realtors, it forbade it to people innocent of all wrong-doing who wouldn’t join its labor union.
Here’s a lens for thinking about this: If I’m a hypocrite for seeking to undermine the NAR from the inside, then the American Patriots were traitors to the Crown (which they were from England’s point of view).
May 21, 2009 — 6:44 am
Joe Loomer says:
THE NAR IS COMING, THE NAR IS COMING!! One if by land, it seems.
My heritage is kinda funny so your reply woke me up – Mom was a Brit, Dad a New Yorker with lineage back to Plymouth Rock (I’m trying to list that now).
The Patriots WHERE traitors in the eyes of the Crown, but I think you spend too much time swinging out to the apogee – and this comes from a guy who owns a “Charter Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy” coffee cup.
I’m happy to join the fray – pay my NAR dues with a grimace (wife’s also an agent, so it’s a double-whammajamma on the pocketbook) – and remember when Realtor.com started posting FSBOs. But a criminal enterprise? Begs the questions about the advent of Buyers Agency, lockboxes, etc.
Question for you – what could and should NAR do to dispell your views of it as a criminal enterprise?
Navy Chief, Navy Pride
May 21, 2009 — 7:06 am