Let me be honest. I’ve been using Google Docs as my CRM for a while. It’s been fast–I’ve got it mapped to a hotkey, and also on my Mac’s dashboard. I can collect info on clients, contacts fast. And I can highlight the ones I follow up with, owe something to, whatever. It’s not perfect–I was trying so hard to love HEAP. Heap has an utterly perfect ethos in what a CRM should be, but it’s not ready yet. It’s tantalizingly close, but seriously, it’s not ready as a point of fact.
Your mileage may vary, but my CRM requirements are as follows:
- Hotkey accessible. Taking the time to interrupt your thought, mouse over, click a menu, work the mouse over the word you want is a clumbsy solution. I want to create contacts, appointments, tasks, documents and emails with a keystroke.
- Activity Series Oriented: If I build blogs, there are the same tasks that have to get done with each little project. Install Theme, tweak CSS, whatever. I don’t want to have to remember all of ’em for the different things we do over and over again.
- Desktop Speeds: My data. I own it. I need it fast. I don’t wanna wait for a web query when I’m at my desk.
- Email that works, auto drip marketing. I want to assign criteria based drip marketing campaigns and have it get handled. (A second feature would be compliant opt outs, but I don’t care that much)
- Documents of some type/mail merges: I don’t wanna work around the software.
- Custom fields and custom views: I wanna put what I want in the damn thing, and I wanna see it how I wanna see it.
- Custom Lookups: I want to look up by WHATEVER i want to look it up by. Nothing in the twitter field? Whatever.
Heap does much of this, but the interface is aggressively bad. User/Contact/People/Leads. All that stuff makes no sense, and the tagging feature is stupid and bolted on, and it’s not good enough to be a ‘daily driver.’
The best CRM I’ve ever used was ACT! 6.0. Alas, ACT! was bought from Symantec by BEST software, and they used Microsoft SQL Server to run the new version, ripped out old features, and all that made a 2.0 ghz machine with 2 gigs struggle to open it. Subsequent versions of ACT are Don’t buys…but 6.0 had the speed and features and was a worldbeater. It wasn’t really ‘groupware–‘ it handled synchronization like Christmas lights do…and to say that 6.0 handled email poorly is kind of like saying Britney Spears has some daddy issues. Still, for a daily driver, i’ve found nothing I’ve liked enough to use. So google docs has been my permanent temporary solution since.
That is, till I found Daylite. Daylite is Mac Only (another reason to switch). Daylite ain’t perfect, but again–you seek perfection and you get nothing done. It’s gets things mostly right. It integrates with Mail, iCal, which in turn integrate with gcal and Gmail. You can query its database, and it’s set up like REST software to be accessible remotely.
There are some ways of dealing with my data that I want that it doesn’t support (out of the box looking up people with nothing in the phone number field, for research, new contact auto assign task lists). But it’s all manageable, and it’s a vast improvement on what I’m doing. It doesn’t come out of the box with the email goodness that still make me long for HEAP, but look, I can try to hit some asymptote of perfection, or I can shut my mouth and just get stuff done.
Will letcha know what I cook up so you can get stuff done too.
Jeff Brown says:
Nobody can say you haven’t been doin’ your best to figure this CRM stuff out. I’m interested to find out how this new one works out for you. I’ll probably be writing a post on CRM myself some time in mid to late May.
Fortunately for me, it doesn’t say IT on my forehead, so I call the guy. Let’s compare notes once I’ve finished a 4-6 week shakedown cruise. I’m with you when it comes to perfection — get as close as you can, then get it in gear.
Thanks again.
April 18, 2009 — 6:24 pm
Joshua Keen says:
The perpetual search for perfect CRM – you’re not alone. I’ve done my time, for sure. Let’s see….it started with ACT…syncronization issues had me move back to OUTLOOK with the “ActiveAgent” plugin. I’ve done Topproducer 6i, 7i and the more recent version…8i. I’ve dabbled with Salesforce, Zoho, Daylite and REST (aka filemaker pro database for real estate agents – I too am a MAC lover). I’ve done GOOGLE apps and, more recently, I’ve settled on Infusionsoft. Though not perfect and certainly not for everyone – it does allow for intiutive multi-sequence campaigns and high level automation. Built on the backs of serious info-marketers, you can build your own web forms and trackable links (for email) and tie them to specific action sets – which, if pulled off right, can add more than a hint of systemization, segmenation and automation to your lead generation and client servicing efforts. It’s not for everyone – but if your serious about CRM it might be worth a look.
April 18, 2009 — 7:03 pm
Jim Marshall says:
Finding the perfect CRM solution for real estate is my personal holy grail. I’m currently using PlanPlus Online CRM (www.planplusonline.com), and while it isn’t perfect (what is?), I can at least use it several different computers, sync multiple users, and best of all, sync it with my Iphone calendar and contacts using an add-on app which syncs with Outlook (which I still default to for email) then to my Iphone through MobileMe. It is multi-step, but works for the most part.
April 18, 2009 — 8:51 pm
Benjamin Ficker says:
I’ve looked through the Daylight website; impressive for sure. The one thing I didn’t see was creating web forms. Then again, I would have my diverse solutions web form and my altos research form already. Has anybody figured out the best way to get these contacts all in one place?
April 18, 2009 — 9:35 pm
Joshua Hanoud says:
I’m using Google Apps and GooSync.com to sync calendar & contacts with my palm 700p. So far it’s working pretty well – but I haven’t gotten into web-forms that populate databases that send out drip email campaigns…I have yet to see drip email campaigns that come across as authentic…
April 19, 2009 — 7:28 am
Genuinechris Johnson says:
@Ben webforms are overrated. We arge in a belly to belly business. We will see the limits of automation soon. That said, web forms still matter, so I’m going to use Aweber + Daylite. I’ll automate through aweber and pull new contacts into Daylite from time to time with a custom status/etc. Daylite is all that. It is flexible and you can do whatever you want with the data.
@Jeff- I’m not an IT guy. Had meant to write a post rebutting Greg Swann’s rebuttal of you: you don’t need to be an IT guy to have power. You can assess a man’s efficacy pretty quickly by watching how they manage their shit.
April 19, 2009 — 7:34 am
Joshua Keen says:
@ GenuineChris – automation and being in a “belly to belly” business are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I’d argue they go together like peas and carrots. I’ve found the more I automate my back end systems the more time I have to engage in the belly-to-belly, “front end” lead generation that is so crucial to earning our daily bread. A highly segmented database (ie. one that separates wheat from the chaff) is key to effective “1.0” prospecting. If anything it cuts down on the number of licks it takes to get to the center of your business – the qualified prospect.
@ Joshua H. – I agree with you on the authenticty point. But automation does not equal “drip email” – done right it can be an important part of positioning yourself as an expert among your network…done wrong it’s nothing more than spam. We’re in a business that is, in my opinion, more and more about the value of our content. Getting our content to the right people at the right time is what effective databasing is all about. Email plays a role, sure…but setting someone up to receive spam every 3 days is not the way to go about it.
April 19, 2009 — 10:09 am
Benjamin Ficker says:
@Chris, I’ve got to agree with Joshua K on this one. We can get away with little automation when we have 30 leads a month hitting our website, but what about when it gets to 30 leads a day? I think with out the proper systems set up to respond to inquiries, you are capping your potential. When most web leads are 4 to 6 months out before closing, the tasks can get overwhelming.
April 19, 2009 — 11:46 am
Jeff Brown says:
And the congregation said Amen.
April 19, 2009 — 12:53 pm
Jody Cowdrey says:
I have to say that Top Producer is the best for my purposes.
These features are critical:
– has to be web-based. HAS TO. No compromise here. We have 5+ computers in different locations.
– has to be able to handle automatic email to 2200+ mailing list subscribers several times a week.
– has to be able to allow customization of unlimited “action plans” or follow-up campaigns (automation), including automatic scheduling of emails, calls, and to-dos.
I haven’t found any app that comes close. However, AllClients.com looks promising.
Great post!
April 19, 2009 — 1:15 pm
Benjamin Ficker says:
@ Jody,
I’ve used Top Producer in the past and there were quite a few reasons I moved away from it. Most importantly to me was their mobile application. I hated that I had to keep 2 separate databases on my Blackberry. In addition, it took up so much memory everytime I opened it, it would erase all of my text messages and my call log. Also, the user interface. Terrible. In 8i, you could not get the home screen to show all the past due items as a default. I didn’t want to spend the extra time it took every day to go into the system to find what needed to be done. I put up with it for 6 months while they said they were going to fix it, and it never happened. And lastly, I hated the way the forms looked. Unless you were great at creating your own contact forms, the default ones they gave were hideous. Maybe it got better. Maybe if I paid the ridiculous amount per month for the whole suite it would have worked better, I don’t know. I was just tired of having to put with it.
April 19, 2009 — 1:37 pm
Benjamin Ficker says:
One more thing. The load time was horrible. Having to wait for the program to load, having to wait to get into the other parts of the program. I just couldn’t deal with it. My hope with Daylight is that it is fast. I don’t necessarily need web access if it can sync with my Iphone. Besides that I carry a laptop with me where ever I go.
April 19, 2009 — 1:40 pm
Joshua Keen says:
@ Jody – Top Producer is great for all the reasons you mentioned. I will say, until the much improved 8i, it was extremely cumbersome with it’s “wizard” style interface. Too many clicks to accomplish a task or enter data. From what I can tell that’s no longer the case.
What it doesn’t have is a custom web form build feature or, for that matter, the ability to customize specific fields as you would want them for your specific business. The API can help here because it will interface with your website with the right programming.
What I love about Infusionsoft (the CRM I currently use) is the automation it applies to what is normally a lot of tedious button clicking and manual admin to segment your database and keep it working for you. With the click of one button (or, if your smart about it – no buttons) it works to keep your pipeline segmented properly and all the appropriate action plans scheduled. For instance – I can send an email with an imbeded “trackable link” to a prospect asking them to visit a specific landing page on my website. When they click on that link in the email Infusion will conduct any sequence of “actions” I program it to do (ie. categorize/tag a record, send an email, send a voicebroadcast, assign a task, send a fax, apply a follow campaign, etc)
@ Ben – this level of automation (see above) is imperative at the 30 “leads”/”inquiries” a day level, for sure.
April 19, 2009 — 1:47 pm
Jody Cowdrey says:
@Benjamin Understood. Regardless, with all it’s faults, it’s the only thing that can handle the three areas I mentioned. That in itself justifies the price for me ($40 a month).
I love my Blackberry, but I only keep my high priority contacts on it. Never had any use for the TP Blackberry app.
I know there was an uproar when 7i went to 8i. There’s still quite a bit of improving that could be done. Once we got the learning curve out of the way, all’s ok now.
I’m in my trial period for AllClients. It’s really fast, and well thought out. We’ll see what happens. Plus it’s only $16 a month or so.
April 19, 2009 — 1:54 pm
Benjamin Ficker says:
@ Jody
I haven’t heard of allclients.com before. I’ll have to check it out.
@ Joshua Keen
The idea of Infusionsoft is really intriguing to me. I would love to have that much control and information, though it seems like it would take A LOT of set up. How difficult was it getting everything up and running? Does it also sync contacts with gmail, or BB, or whatever?
My biggest concern is getting all of my database systems in one place. I have my contacts in DiverseSolutions (great IDX, I hate the crm portion) and Altos Reasearch (GREAT Product, I have more clients sign up for that then my IDX). Ideally, I would have my IDX contacts and Altos contacts populate in to Infusionsoft, or daylight, or whatever. The problem right now is that I have to manually do that. Yes, I can download a csv and upload it into whatever DB System I decide on, but that’s just one more hurdle to me actually doing it. I spoke with someone from Salesforce.com and she said that with there system you can create forms that will auto populate into the other systems. Does anyone know if this works in other DB’s?
My only hang up with Salesforce.com is that you have to get the Premiere level, or whatever it’s called, to get the automation working. That alone is $1500 a year. Plus you have to buy another monthly product to tie in your real estate specific business. What are the costs (time and money) with Infusionsoft?
April 19, 2009 — 2:25 pm
Robert J Thiessen says:
I like the video tutorials on allclients.com. Very well done I would say.
April 19, 2009 — 3:19 pm
Scott Grace says:
I have been looking into syncing my iphone with google canendar but haven’t gotten around to it yet. I almost missed an appointment on Friday so I think I will look into my productivity first thing tomorrow!
April 19, 2009 — 5:59 pm
Joshua Hanoud says:
This is a fantastic thread, and I’m hoping we can work this out as a group at Unchained (which CRM, best ways to use it, get it up and going, etc).
I am far from the point of receiving 30+ leads per day on my site… I get about 1 active lead per day (on average…sometimes none, sometimes 3-4). In my marketplace, I don’t know that there are much more than 30 leads/day to be had and I’m hoping that we can get into that also at Unchained (what changes should be made to my site(s) to help increase the number of incoming leads).
I absolutely adore the IDEA of drip emails – and I definitely find myself copying/pasting the majority of my follow-up emails for each lead – but I also customize each one after the copy/paste from a previous version…I don’t see how that could be done automatically (but how cool would THAT be…).
April 19, 2009 — 6:47 pm
Greg Swann says:
> I’m hoping we can work this out as a group at Unchained
Mark Green is going to do an hour on CRM, and I’m going to play a little with automation strategies, but the best of CRM at Unchained going to be informal. The reason is that everything sucks as far as I can tell. We looked at Daylite in 2006, but we rejected it for the same reason we avoided ACT and other proprietary, hardware-locked systems. I think BloodhoundRealty.com is going to bite the bullet and move to Salesforce.com, but I realized tonight that what I want more than anything is for my CRM to run out of an open DB like MySQL. I want access to the data at the query level, and I don’t want to have to go through any pseudo-coding languages if I don’t want to. I become more and more convinced that the universal communications interface of the web-based world is the interactive web page itself, and I want to be able to deal with my databased data just as I would deal with anything else. I don’t hate it if software makes repetitive tasks simpler, but sometimes the hard way is the only way. If there is no direct access to the hard way — my key objection with Heap — then I’m not satisfied.
April 19, 2009 — 7:29 pm
Jody Cowdrey says:
@Greg It may be worth looking into taking an open source CRM like SugarCRM or VTiger, since they pretty much run off of MySQL, and hiring a coder to customize it to your needs. There are many freelancer coders that could handle it. The trick is to have the ultimate outcome very clearly defined. Hell of a project to manage though.
April 19, 2009 — 7:49 pm
Benjamin Ficker says:
I am by no means getting 30 leads a day, but I don’t want to limit myself 🙂 I know I can do most of the input if its 30 leads a month, but WHEN I start getting 30 leads a day, I don’t want to have to move to a new system. I’d rather be scalable now. Besides, I know how I operate and having the hurdle of making myself add the contacts will keep me from doing it every time.
I did have a question for the Daylight users and the Infusionsoft users. I know there is scripting capabilities with both programs. Has anybody utilized that to auto login into other programs and pull contacts?
April 20, 2009 — 12:45 am
Matthew Hardy says:
Thank you Chris, for mentioning REST.
I am delighted to see robust discussion on the topic of real estate and CRM. (Another discussion with Pat Kitano on the topic here.)
The design of real estate customer relationship management software should be driven by purpose and demand.
Purpose: Our purpose here is to build and possibly sell a real estate business.
I cut my teeth on the rigors of good relational database development in creating systems to analyze clinical trials data for pharmaceutical studies. Since then, I’ve developed many other private systems for governments, corporations and institutions. Because this past work was for systems that would not be owned by me, my entire focus was on the security and integrity of the client’s data, and every structural and functional capability supported their purposes. This is specialization and, in a commercial sense, a matter of business logic. The process of what I call “transcribing” business logic into database logic is pretty easy when the scope is narrow, but to build a whole system that provides data sets swiftly and easily for uses not yet imagined can take some real planning, abstraction and a good understanding of relational database theory. My key point here is that all data are specialized so “generic CRM” may be a oxymoron (but I’m probably just being picky). I agree with you that ACT! sucks, but I thought it always sucked. Besides search, I haven’t been impressed enough with anything Google has done to use personally. So my starting position is that genuine (!) CRM is either custom or vertical market. The purpose of real estate CRM is to collect, manage/perfect and leverage data for building and possibly selling a real estate business.
Demand: How much data will be collected and stored and at what rate; how many people will access it; what are the quality and types of connections; scalability.
The easy part – all numerical values.
Now for your requirements:
> Hotkey accessible
100% agreed. Since most desktop programs (including ours) have keyboard shortcuts – a big distinction from web-based software, are you referring to a system-wide capability; i.e. operating on data collected in one application for insertion into another application? A few you might want to consider are QuicKeys, AppleScript, and Automator Actions.
> Activity Series Oriented
100% agreed.
> Desktop Speeds: My data. I own it. I need it fast. I don’t wanna wait for a web query when I’m at my desk.
100% agreed.
> Email that works, auto drip marketing.
Very much agreed with caveat. Let’s consider HTML versus text-based email, outgoing versus incoming email then the “auto” part of auto drip marketing.
I think that text-based marketing email remains attractive and ours does this. Perhaps a trend (?) away from vanity marketing coupled with an increasingly mobile context will make it preferred for many. There are some ease-of-use hurdles associated with do-it-yourself HTML-based email marketing. Of course, text-based email allows for included links and is very easy, but we know the value of HTML-based email. We’ve had this capability running internally for some time but would like to include an embedded editor before releasing it commercially. Incoming email is another feature we’ll add as I believe we’ve addressed the most important spam and security factors.
The “auto” part is where we might differ a bit. I conclude that lead-by-lead human intervention is desirable for our context. A first action for any new lead should be to validate the data – not just by regular expression, but by your own decision as a business owner to pursue the business or not. Algorithms were invented to machine-process this kind of decision making, but for scales larger than typical real estate practitioners. Vending machines are handy, but a truly good meal requires a restaurant. Ultimately, it’s really a matter of scale and prospect/customer value to the business. To wax philosophic, in a world where everyone knows when they’re on someone’s drip marketing campaign, a more personalized approach might win out. If you’ve got too many leads to handle, should you automate or staff-up? Depends on your positioning and economics, I guess, but automation should only be used to the point where getting and keeping customers is enhanced but not diminished.
I live in a world where I’m constantly trying to determine where the atmosphere ends and space starts, in CRM abstractions anyway, and I laud the the lowly cut-and-paste function. Copy and paste are the natural algorithms of our digital life and allows us to parse reality into our own management system. The “relationship” in CRM implies human processing, no?
> Documents of some type/mail merges
100% agreed.
> Custom fields and custom views
A custom/commercial fulcrum. For absolute, full control get a a relational database program. If you don’t want to start from scratch, many develop adjunct files that connect relationally to ours.
> Custom Lookups
100% agreed.
I also agree that Daylite is a very nice program, although not real-estate specific. One particularly smart thing they’ve done is recognize the value of interoperating with more specialized data sets and offer an add-on called “Daylite FileMaker Connector” to pull information from FileMaker (to Daylite) and push information from Daylite (to FileMaker).
Finally, FileMaker’s server version offers a PHP API for web form data collection and web data publishing. There are many PHP/FileMaker deployments. Will I point you to them? No. Why? I’m not telling you. (How’s that for transparency?) 🙂 But if some PHP coder wants to independently prove the technology in a cool real estatey way, I’ll provide the software, server, whatever.
Did I reach my word limit? 😉
Cheers.
April 20, 2009 — 9:24 am
John Kalinowski says:
Chris – Have you looked at Highrise by 37signals? It’s a Seth Godin favorite, and it looks interesting.
I’m currently playing with REST, and I can’t say enough about their support.
April 27, 2009 — 4:22 pm
Robert J Thiessen says:
John… do you have a link for REST?
April 27, 2009 — 4:38 pm
John Kalinowski says:
@Robert
http://www.RealEstateSuccessTools.com
April 27, 2009 — 5:10 pm