When I was young, I was convinced I was going to work in either editorial or advertising. I was a teenage photo geek, a Junior Jimmy Olson with thousands of dollars worth of professional photo gear slung over my shoulder. In college, I was publisher of the student newspaper. From the time I was very young, single digits, I was producing all sorts of printed material. And because I often didn’t have a budget, I learned how to do a lot of it by myself.
The net consequence of all this is that, by the time I had to get a real job, I knew how to write, I knew how to create images — and I knew how to do many of the back-end jobs associated with producing printed words and images. I looked at my job opportunities and saw that print production paid a helluva lot better than content creation. So I went to work in Wall Street (where the very best money was found) producing 10-Ks and Blue Sky Reports and Annual Reports. I worked a boatload of IPOs, and 102 weblog posts overnight is not a very big job compared to the 100+ hours of the revision cycle on an Initial Public Offering.
All of this was happening at an epoch we might name The Dawn of the Age of Connectivity. The law firms we worked for had high-end dedicated word processing systems, and they wanted to know why they couldn’t do everything “on disk” — in the dewy-eyed lingo of the day.
It fell to me to do this, mostly because I was interested and no one else was. The “disk” problem was a bear, and there were dozens of kludgey “solutions” to this dilemma over the years. But, understood as a telecommunications problem, mere capture of keystrokes was not that big a problem.
The big problem was expressing word-processed coding as typography — and if you are not fairly well-versed in typography, you are probably already saying, “What’s the difference?” And, indeed, the difference today is much smaller than it was when I was doing this work. Typography once was an intricate art-form, practiced by very fussy craftsmen. By now, it is mostly an afterthought, handled badly, if at all, by built-in software functions — and otherwise entirely forgotten. Gutenberg weeps, but no one has time to care.
This was an iterative problem, and I worked on it more or less continuously for over 25 years. You start with eliminating all the goofy spaces typists use to line things up, and from there you go after their habituated use of the lowercase l instead of a numeral 1, a trick they learned when typewriters didn’t have a key for the numeral 1. There are hundreds of silly things typists do that can be caught and corrected by software, and there are hundreds of other things that typographers do that typists and word processors know nothing about.
By the mid-1980s, I had C software that I was using to convert word-processor keystrokes into high-end proprietary typographic systems. When I switched all my work to QuarkXPress on the Macintosh, I renamed this software XPort, and when I actually ported it to Think C on the Mac, I renamed it XP8 — the process of ridding a soul of its sins. If you prowl the anonymous FTP servers, you can still find copies of XP8. It will run fine in the Classic environment on any Motorola PPC (not Intel) Macintosh.
Part of XP8 was a quote conversion algorithm. Here again is a problem that probably means nothing at all to you, and the only time you are likely to notice a failure in quote conversion is when it smacks you right in the face. This is so often so wrong — particularly the leading apostrophe — that I know with certainty that almost nobody cares.
I care. A lot. I wrote the best quote conversion algorithm in the history of quote conversion algorithms. I can fool it, but you never will. I can fool most quote conversion algorithms with a sentence as simple as this: Judy said, “Who wrote ‘The Spirit of ’76?'” (Did WordPress get it wrong? As much as I like WP, its quote-processing is lame.) XP8’s way of doing this is truly algorithmic, so you can do nested quotes to any level you can stand — across multiple paragraphs — and still not miss. But it also has software exception processing for possible — even if rare — problem cases, along with look-up tables for aberrant constructs that nevertheless can occur in English.
What’s the point of all this? Nobody cares. At one point, I was trading email with Tim Gill, the programming god who wrote QuarkXPress, and he had no idea why anyone would worry about quotes beyond the level of processing Microsoft Word might do.
Guess what? He was right. Quote conversion was interesting to me, because it was an inherently solvable, very difficult software problem. It was interesting — to a point — to other people passionate about typography, but they were content to correct the occasional error by hand and move on. It was not interesting at all to anyone else.
Why?
Because close enough is good enough.
Given what it is, Zillow.com cannot ever accurately evaluate a house. This requires tools, techniques and personnel Zillow.com will never have. But it is entirely possible that the correspondence between a Zillow.com Zestimate and an on-the-ground appraisal will be so high that any difference will negligible. Zillow will never be able to say for sure if the house is really there, and if someone writes a loan on a burned-down house, that lender will be a lender no more. But if you think this means that AVMs — not necessarily Zillow.com — will never replace appraisers, especially for bread and butter jobs — think again.
I would much prefer an AVM with MLS access. Tax records are polluted with dubious sales — FSBOs, wrecks, distress sales, mother-in-law deals. Represented transactions are a much flatter curve and they’re supported by much more data. But all that is just more quibbling
Close enough is good enough, and as soon as an AVM vendor can get to an algorithm that predicts the ultimate sales price to the satisfaction of all the interested parties, the need for an independent umpire goes out the window.
Think of this: Hardware is cheap. Database record space is cheap. Software is iterative — never perfect, but always getting better. The ultimate AVM would simply track every available detail about every known home.
My ethical objection to Zillow.com, in particular, remains: Portraying AVM results as being the equivalent of an appraisal is deceptive. And, while I’m interested in learning how much of the Zillow mystique is nothing more than marketing mumbo-jumbo, it remains that caviling about Zillow.com’s “accuracy” is a dead end. In the first place, it cannot ever be accurate, but in the second place, it — or another, better AVM — stands an excellent chance of achieving an uncanny correspondence to real-life market results.
Technorati Tags: disintermediation, real estate, real estate marketing
Robbie says:
I guess the real argument is “Is Zillow portraying AVM results as being the equivalent of an appraisal”?
I would argue they are not. Zillow’s site says things like “get an idea of what your home is worth”, “Review recently sold homes to get a sense of neighborhood trends”, “Compare the home’s estimated value to the asking price”.
No where does Zillow claim they are offering an appraisal. They don’t say they are a professional appraiser or similarly qualified person. In fact, Zillow says they are “an online real estate service dedicated to helping you get an edge in real estate by providing you with valuable tools and information.”
I guess it all depends on the legal definition of appraisal. Is an estimate an appraisal? I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t think it is. If it is, then one could argue Zillow is decpetive.
Besides, I don’t think the need for an independent umpire will go out the window. Garry Kasparov is still gainfully employeed even though Deep Blue is currently the better chess player.
October 3, 2006 — 4:58 pm
Greg Swann says:
> Garry Kasparov is still gainfully employeed even though Deep Blue is currently the better chess player.
You see? This is why software engineers must never be permitted to teach epistemology. What Deep Blue does is not playing chess. The map is never the territory no matter how closely correspondent it might be.
October 3, 2006 — 5:02 pm
David G from Zillow.com says:
Hi Greg, it’s David G from Zillow.com
There’s no reason to obfusticate this appraisal issue … a Zestimate is not an appraisal. The consumers who use Zillow and whose feedback I’ve read or whom I have spoken with, understand this well.
The text below this is copied from Zillow.com. It isn’t from an obscure footnote, it lives under the “how to use Zillow” tab and we link to it from the “what’s this” link next to each Zestimate.
Is a Zestimate an appraisal?
The Zestimate is not an appraisal and you won’t be able to use it in place of an appraisal, though you can certainly share it with real estate professionals. It is an estimate of the worth of a house today, given the data we have available. Zillow.com does not offer the Zestimate as the basis of any specific real-estate-related financial transaction. Our data sources may be incomplete or incorrect; also, we have not physically inspected a specific home. Remember, the Zestimate is a starting point and does not consider all the market intricacies that can determine the actual price a house will sell for, such as entertaining offers, negotiating, closing costs, timing, etc.
October 3, 2006 — 5:13 pm
Greg Swann says:
David, this is disingenuous at best.
First, the text you quote is not on the “How to use Zillow” tab but one level under it — this is to say two levels under the main page.
Second, this is what it says on the main page:
These are all specific FALSE promises.
Zillow.com LIES in the large print, and then shyly tells the truth in the small print, hidden well below the radar.
You want me off your back?
All you have to do is say, “A Zestimate is not an appraisal,” legibly, unmistakably, on the same page that anyone might mistake a Zestimate for an appraisal.
Until Zillow.com does something like that, I’ll keep hammering away on this point, and you will do your cause more harm than good by picking at it.
October 3, 2006 — 5:33 pm
Robbie says:
This is also why epistemologists shouldn’t teach computer science.
Is Kasparov really playing chess? Is he really “thinking”? Do people really think, or are we really just complicated state machines based on chemicals, neurons, and synapses, that we ourselves don’t fully understand yet, as opposed to simple machines based on silicon, software and networks, that we both built and understand.
Until you can hook up a person’s brain to a debugger, step through their programming, and inspect their RAM, (or use other devices as yet uninvented) it’s awfully presumptuous for you to assume Kasparov is playing chess.
I prefer ontology myself. 😉
October 3, 2006 — 6:01 pm
Greg Swann says:
> Do people really think, or are we really just complicated state machines based on chemicals, neurons, and synapses, that we ourselves don’t fully understand yet, as opposed to simple machines based on silicon, software and networks, that we both built and understand.
Believe it or not, this is the second time that bald-faced determinism has shaved the Spanish Barber around here. I’m thinking I must be doomed. Oh, well. That’s the way the wavefront collapses…
October 3, 2006 — 6:33 pm
jf.sellsius says:
Deep Blue was designed to beat Kasparov. Had access to Kasparov’s prior games been denied, Deep Blue would have been deep-sixed.
I am in Greg’s camp re: Non-appraisal disclaimer. If indeed it’s disclosed anyway, why the fear of putting it on page one, or better yet, beside the zestimate too? The answer seems obvious, people are more likely to see it.
Brokers are bound in some states (NJ, MD, PA)to conspicuously display a “non-appraisal” disclaimer on their CMAs, also an opinion of value. Why not statisticians, for as David G accurately points out:
“Our data sources may be incomplete or incorrect; also, we have not physically inspected a specific home.” and
“Zillow…does not consider all the market intricacies that can determine the actual price a house will sell for.” Seems only fair if they tell buyers not to “ovepay”
But I have a further hammering point: an owner’s right to opt-out of the zestimate.
A zestimate is an unsoliciated value opinion which is published without an owner’s consent. A bad analogy perhaps but what if you had your house listed for $300,000 and I stood across the street holding a sign with a zestimate that said,”In my opinion, based on statistical analysis of public data, etc, the value is only $220,000, don’t overpay.” Would a seller have a right to object? Explain to me the difference David.
Instead owners have only 2 choices: leave an inaccurate zestimate out there or register, give personal information of ownership & change it, for ultimately Zillow’s benefit (not the owner’s because the zestimate is not changed). What is not discussed, and which I have yet to fully process, is that my home and millions of Americans are being used by Zillow for a profit of which I do not share.
October 3, 2006 — 6:40 pm
Robbie says:
Greg,
Philosophy is computer science with stacks and gotos removed. Logic is still logical, regardless if you’re a software engineer or philosopher.
jf.sellsius
Should Zillow be held to the same standard as an licensed appraiser? That’s up to the lawmakers to decide. I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know if they need a more obvious “A Zestimate is not an appraisal” disclaimer or their site or not. I suppose it would be prudent for Zillow to make such disclosures more visible to avoid future possible legal fall-out and since brokers in some states are under similar obligations.
However, I’m sure Zillow would claim they aren’t a broker or an appraiser. I’m sure that Zillow is smart enough to hire lawyers and seek their expert opinion and feels comfortable with the way they currently disclose Zestimates.
Will it stand a legal challenge? I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
October 4, 2006 — 5:06 am
Robbie says:
Greg,
Philosophy is computer science with stacks and gotos removed. Logic is still logical, regardless if you’re a software engineer or philosopher.
jf.sellsius
Should Zillow be held to the same standard as an licensed appraiser? That’s up to the lawmakers to decide. I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know if they need a more obvious “A Zestimate is not an appraisal” disclaimer or their site or not. I suppose it would be prudent for Zillow to make such disclosures more visible to avoid future possible legal fall-out and since brokers in some states are under similar obligations.
However, I’m sure Zillow would claim they aren’t a broker or an appraiser. I’m sure that Zillow is smart enough to hire lawyers and seek their expert opinion and feels comfortable with the way they currently disclose Zestimates.
Will it stand a legal challenge? I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
October 4, 2006 — 5:06 am
Greg Swann says:
> Philosophy is computer science with stacks and gotos removed. Logic is still logical, regardless if you’re a software engineer or philosopher.
In taxicab geometry, straight lines and right angles only, pi = 4. Logic — and all of computer science — is a formal system. It need only hew to its axioms, with no necessary correspondence to reality. Practical — as opposed to whimsical — software models reality, and the closer the correspondence of the model to reality, the more useful the software. That is exaclty the crux of the AVM issue in the large. But: “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in our philosophy.” I think the issue of volitum is huge, barely touched on anywhere. This is a project I have set aside for retirement, defending free will.
October 4, 2006 — 7:57 am
Kevin says:
I, too, would love to see a Zillow with access to MLS sold data…but that won’t happen for at least two reasons:
1) I believe there are ~900 MLS’s in the country. At, say, ~$500 per month for affiliate membership, that comes out to nearly $5.5M per year — a lot of money, even for a company that has raised +$50M.
2) When you become an MLS member, you need to abide by its rules (that is, unless your name is Redfin.) An inconvenient rule that most MLS’s have is a prohibition on displaying sold data…that would kind of kill Zillow right there!
October 4, 2006 — 9:21 am
Galen says:
Ya’ll must have missed it – Zillow is joining the MLS systems: http://www.raincityguide.com/2006/02/17/zillow-mls-membership-done/
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/260028_zillow18.html
Based on Greg’s post the other day, they must not be integrating the data yet.
October 4, 2006 — 10:25 am
Jim Meader says:
Various qustions and observations;
If I am a For Sale By Owner, rely on a Zestimate for pricing my Home, as I am not using the services of a Realtor, my home sales, and the appraised value for the buyer’s loan values the home X Dollars more than the sales price, has the Seller been harmed? The same question could be asked if the Buyer relies on the Zestimate in making an offer to the For Sale By Owner, without a Realtor and pays more than the loan appraised value.
The logic that the disclaimers made by the web site are valid is dependent on two things 1. the consumer reading them and 2. the consumer understanding them, if they do not, is it cavit emptor? becuase its “just a web site”
The Realtor, as an Agent of the Buyer or Seller, has duties to their principals by law, Does a web site doing the same functions have the same duties to the consumer? and if so what Government agency would have jurisdiction or be charged with enforecment? At what point does a web site cross over a line?
Another item for discussion. What is the value of a Sold Data Point, ie. Zillow needs and wants sold information to enhance the validity of its Zestimate. 95% of all Sold data is generated by Agents in physical offices around the country. Those real estate offices have annual operating costs. If you take the annual operating cost for a physical real estate office, and divide that by the number of Sold Data Points they create each year, you get an idea of the “Cost” of each Data Point. Should this valuable information then be “given” to Zillow to enhhance Zillows accuaracy? Could Zillow afford the real cost of creating the Data Point on their own?
Most, web based only, real estate web sites assume that the sold data is Public domain, and or should be, and therefore it should be made available to them for little or no cost to enhance their idea of “Real Estate In The Future” If you were a real estate office funding the cost of these data points, you would probably have a different opinion, and at some point no longer put your listings into an MLS. This very point is what the Department of Justice does not understand, or does not want to understand for the sake of “New Business Models”. Remeber real estate is always local, the consumer would still know what is for sale by yards signs, which are still one of the most effective marketing tools used today. If there is no centralized data aggregation, ( ie an MLS )web based real estate sites without data become very boring.
The bottom line to all this is the “Data” belongs to the creator as work product, what they choose to do with that work product will determine a lot in the future.
October 4, 2006 — 4:39 pm
anon says:
@ Jim: wow. you sound like zillow is aiming to take over your business. i’m not sure that’s the case, but at least take the paranoia down a notch.
re: sold data: not so fast. where I live, sold data is recorded by the county and is made publically available. this may or may not be true in other places. in my mind, the issue is how long does it take to get that data. a real estate office may have that data today, but the lag in getting it recorded with the county could easily be 1-3 months away. at that point, i think we can agree it’s not as useful.
October 4, 2006 — 7:38 pm
jf.sellsius says:
Does anyone have an opinion on whether owners should have the right to opt-out of publication of a zestimate on their home?
I would also appreciate the reasoning why or why not. Thanks hound readers.
October 5, 2006 — 11:11 am
Jim Meader says:
The real estate industry is in a mode of change as a direct result of the introduction of the internet. During this period those that have an investment in what “has worked” are not as excited to have thier business model changed. But like all businesses you adapt to survive, and to compete in the new model, or you die.
For those of us that recognize this, you have to sift through a lot of proposed models to see what can survive. Real estate has all ready seen hundreds of web models come and go, and from what I see the silver bullet of the new interent model in real estate, is still in development.
My comments were not coming from paranioa, but from having successfully created a viable real estate business operating today. The questions and or statements made, reflect “my real world of regulation in the State of California” which is considered as a very pro-consumer state from a legal protection point of veiw. The interent real estate models are so new, that the laws ( that will be coming ) have not been developed yet. So they are less constrained by regulations, than the exisitng established real estate offices producing transactions today.
As an example, many Realtors are brought into court each year based on “Yes I signed that State mandated Disclosure, but I did not understand it” so I think you the Realtor should pay for my distress. It is a given, some claims are valid and some are not, but how do you prove a client 2 years earlier understood what they were signing? Therefore my first example, is on target, a consumer relied on web based information and acted on it. Does the web based source of information have any liability if the consumer later feels they were harmed?
The “Sold Data” Value point is up for debate, what I put up is my point of view for the purpose of this very discusssion. Transactions take time, knowledge, expenses, and liability exposure to create, that will not go away, no matter how they are done. These data points are a critical item for every real estate web site. Why would you go to a real estate web site if it did not have new listings with photos and videos, and past solds, the answere you would not. Yet all non-Realtor web sites feel that what some one else creates should be free to them to use.
Let’s use another example, a Photographer takes a picture, puts it up on his web site, do you have the right to then create a photo web site, use his photo for free and without permission, and then charge to advertise on your web site? What if I paid the photographer to take a picture of my listing, does it change the example? Can you freely copy the text of a book onto your web site, then sell advertising as people come to read the book for free? would not the author and publisher have an action based on copywrite?
You may or may not agree with me, but the questions have merit.
As to how long a Data Point has value, is totally dependent on the Market. In the past 5 years or more I would agree that after 90 days the market was moving so fast that it was only relevant as a starting point. But now the market has changed, some areas have an inventory build up reflecting an 8 month supply base on the reduce volume of sales. So today the data point has a longer value time period.
October 6, 2006 — 1:51 pm