This is a response to a comment that grew up to be a post:
Louis Cammarosano: “[I]f it wasn’t for “Vendor” Zillow, Unchained Phoenix would have shown a loss.”
No, we would have done the show in a different facility, without food. Zillow.com paid for our guests to have a much better experience than they would have had otherwise. I’m very grateful for this, but it had nothing to do with what were doing. If we can, I want to pay for Orlando entirely from receipts, so that we will have heard the last of these specious charges.
Louis Cammarosano: “The anti vendor rhetoric falls flat when your conference was sponsored by one and you have become one yourself.”
Falls flat for whom? Is there anyone reading this who thinks that we are casting about for a way to make milch cows out of Realtors and lenders, in the way that virtually everyone associated with the Inman.com/Realtor.com/Move.com world seeks to milk Realtors and lenders? I’m completely serious. If you really think that, let me know, because I will want to dial up the anti-vendor/anti-broker/anti-NAR rhetoric quite a bit. I am sick to death of putatively self-employed business people being swindled by one huckster after another, and I am doing everything I can think of to put a stop to it. If I haven’t made that abundantly clear by now, the fault is mine, and I will mend my ways with renewed vigor.
I actually agree with the point you don’t quite make: Zillow.com — and possibly some other vendors fully within the Web 2.0 world — don’t deserve to be lumped together with the other companies making up the milking-machinery branch of the Inmanosphere. What can one say about this grievous injustice? How about: Dang.
BloodhoundBlog is a very costly endeavor. Our bandwidth needs are huge, so our hosting fees are fairly high. BloodhoundRealty.com absorbs all of that, along with any other costs associated with running this site. But those numbers pale when compared with the labor value — and the market value — of the content accumulated here — provided by me and by three dozen brilliant contributors over the past two years. In a sense, BloodhoundBlog was made possible by the real estate market slowdown. I made the conscious choice to devote my time here and to other blue-sky endeavors, rather than slugging it out with short sales and foreclosures. Even so, it is completely reasonable to argue that every post in BloodhoundBlog — and there are almost 2,800 of them so far — represents a modicum of lost income for its author. The people writing here chose, each on his or her own behalf, to contribute their knowledge and wisdom to the whole of us, instead of pursuing immediate pecuniary advantages.
Does any of this sound like the carney-barker jive you will find on the show floors of Inman Connect or the NAR Convention? We’re not a charity — I detest indiscriminate charity — but we definitely are a movement. You will know when BloodhoundBlog has attained its goals when there is no more carney-barker jive to be found anywhere in real estate. If people want to experience what we’re doing in person, they’re going to pay for it. Brian Brady always wants to charge the market value, where I’m always eager to cut our price to bone. Even using Brian’s numbers, we’re not going to get rich for our time — and there is a very real risk that we could end up taking losses for what we’re doing — especially in comparison to what we could be doing with our time instead. None of that matters to me. Everything we have to say is always available here for free, and every benefit I derive from this work comes in the form of philosophical and moral and emotional satisfaction. If I cared about money, I might actually have some.
Here’s what I want, Louis — and you were at BloodhoundBlog Unchained in Phoenix, so you already know this:
I want for the very best real estate professionals to reach a state where they are beyond competition in their own markets; where they never again have to take shit from morons; where they don’t have to ransom their own lives over and over again — to vendors, to brokers, to bosses, to the NAR, to politicians — to pandemic pestilential pusillanimous posturing pimps; and where their acquisition costs per closed transaction come as close as possible to zero dollars and zero cents.
If you can’t see the difference between this and what vendors do — you will. You have my word on it.
Addendum: Inlookers, take note, if you please: This is a nice example of the practical value of fully explicating an implied accusation. It is only by calling things by their true names that we can distinguish fact from falsehood, authenticity from sham, innocence from guilt. I’m not accusing Louis of anything nefarious, I am simply pointing out that leaving an implied accusation unexamined is potentially a very costly mistake. If you accept an unearned guilt, you will atone for your error with undeserved burdens. How is that just?
Technorati Tags: blogging, BloodhoundBlog Unchained, real estate, real estate marketing
Trace says:
One fellow I never want to have to engage in a battle of literary wit is ‘Ole Silver Tongue Swann. haha… I think REBloggerGirl called you “silver tongued” and it stuck for me…..
June 18, 2008 — 12:10 am
Greg Swann says:
I can pay you a complementary compliment, Trace: I would really rather not find myself under your relentless investigatory microscope!
June 18, 2008 — 12:27 am
Louis Cammarosano says:
Greg
I think you protest a bit much.
Thanks for making my point though – In your prior post you linked to a list of vendors that included zillow, while claiming to eschew vendors as being “sleazoid”
Since you are now a vendor selling DVDs and conference tickets, certainly there needs to be an exception for vendors that you do not deem as “sleazoid”?
I am not attacking the content of the bloodhound blog or the unchained conference (where I was a participant).
I am merely pointing out that your endeavors have now reached a point of being a commercial enterprise qualifying them for “vendor” status.
A noble one perhaps, but a vendor just the same.
Res ipsa loquitur
June 18, 2008 — 4:15 am
Cheryl Johnson says:
Wow. If Greg and Brian can manage to make Orlando work without vender sponsorship… I can’t imagine a more powerful concept to use in promoting the conference.
“Vendor-Free Zone” “Absolutely no advertising accepted, no bias, just hard hitting ideas from working professionals, for working professionals.”
June 18, 2008 — 4:31 am
Teri Lussier says:
>I want for the very best real estate professionals to reach a state where they are beyond competition in their own markets; where they never again have to take shit from morons; where they don’t have to ransom their own lives over and over again — to vendors, to brokers, to bosses, to the NAR, to politicians — to pandemic pestilential pusillanimous posturing pimps; and where their acquisition costs per closed transaction come as close as possible to zero dollars and zero cents.
A symphony, which I desperately needed to hear today.
This is as close to freedom as we can get- there isn’t another way to live. Thank you, Greg, you’ve just rocked my world.
June 18, 2008 — 4:36 am
Tom Vanderwell says:
It is so refreshing to hear someone like Greg who sets his standards so high and then expounds them so eloquently.
“pandemic pestilential pusillanimous posturing pimps” Wow – my English profs in college would be impressed!
There’s nothing wrong with selling a product (being a vendor). We all sell something. Greg sells houses, I sell money. It’s all about how it’s done.
Keep it up Greg!
Tom
June 18, 2008 — 5:41 am
Thomas Johnson says:
“I want for the very best real estate professionals to reach a state where they are beyond competition in their own markets; where they never again have to take shit from morons; where they don’t have to ransom their own lives over and over again — to vendors, to brokers, to bosses, to the NAR, to politicians — to pandemic pestilential pusillanimous posturing pimps; and where their acquisition costs per closed transaction come as close as possible to zero dollars and zero cents.”
You mean, like, getting the monkey off our backs?
June 18, 2008 — 7:09 am
Teri Lussier says:
More thoughts from someone who isn’t here to shill-
Louis-
We met at BHBU, and you are an extremely likable guy. I don’t think I’m hurting Greg’s feelings by saying that he’s not quite so likable (no tangents needed).
>“The anti vendor rhetoric falls flat when your conference was sponsored by one and you have become one yourself.”
The difference between you and Greg, and we can add Zillow here, is in my perceived value. The customer here, me, thinks that what Greg is offering has more value to me. I’m not convinced that HomeGain gives me something for the money. This is not a request for a sales pitch from you, btw. 🙂 Zillow offers a little.
This is sales 101. If Greg’s selling, then he’s doing a better job, eventhough he’s not as likable, and he doesn’t give away cute orange monkeys.
Put another way: What you are selling, I’m not buying.
It’s not rocket science. I’d prefer to pay for some freedom, than to pay and never be free, my personal preference.
June 18, 2008 — 7:36 am
Barry Cunningham says:
Wow…this is anti-capitalism on display for all to see.
I have been in the event planning and production business for over 20 years. Not only is Greg going against proven principles in real estate (which I applaude him by the way), he is going against the manner in which successful events are planned and produced as well.
Hey..but it’s America, he can do as he pleases, I support him in his endeavors and I am sure that the BHB audience is hearing his message dead on. Which with every promoter is the purpose of their promotion.
Obviously Greg knows his demographic audience and he has chosen to appeal to them to do things his way ala the salmon.
Maybe it will work, maybe it won’t, but as always in true Sinatra-esque form, he will most assuredly do it his way and no one is going to change his mind. I guess that is what makes BHB what it is and why those who like BHB continue to visit.
All I can say is good luck and hope it works out.
June 18, 2008 — 7:47 am
Joseph Bridges says:
Greg,
I think every real estate professional should strive to achieve your goals of being free from the parties that you mentioned. It is why it is important for all those who want to stay profitable in the real estate industry educate themselves by reading blogs like this and applying the lessons in their own businesses. If they do this they can choose the vendors that they want to use instead of being forced into using them.
I would say that the real issue is agents don’t like not having a choice and really who does. Dominating your market gives you choices and nothing is more powerful then telling a prospect “No Thank you!” and choosing your business and telling a vendor “NO WAY”.
All real estate professionals should strive for the freedom of choice. There is nothing wrong with vendors, per se, just how portray themselves at times.
June 18, 2008 — 8:59 am
Mitch Ribak says:
Wow! I think I could probably end this on that note! However, if you know me, I can’t. This is my first comment on here and it’s been fun to watch. Let’s face it, we are all capitialist or we wouldn’t be in Real Estate. I too am against vendors taking advantage of my fellow Realtors. I can’t stand when the same company calls me every other day with a different rep trying to sell me another useless tool. These days, there seems like no end to my cell phone ringing with the best opportunities to grow my business.
With that said, there are vendors that are willing to put themselves out there and stand up for their products. They believe, and have proof, that their products to enhance the ability for Realtors to move ahead. Personally I’m a big fan of Louis and Homegain as my business has doubled since I switched from doing Google and other Search Engine PPC programs. I think its great that Louis is out here defending his products.
Personally, I find that most of the vendors out there are built by non Real Estate people who have no real knowledge of Real Estate. Hence the reason for me building my 100MPH Marketing system and my eHomes Realty Network. Nobody was doing what I needed to do or understood what I needed so I built them myself and it just so happens there are lots of people that want these tools too. Does that make me a Realtor turned Vendor? My only goal is to offer Realtors and Brokers the ability to have great tools that work and that I prove work every day. One of the reasons I didn’t franchise my Real Estate company was to be able to offer the small Broker the tools to play with the big boys. So I guess now I too amd making the transition from Real Estate Broker to Vendor. Does that mean that everything I do now is to take advantage of other Realtors and Brokers. Greg is now turning into a Vendor but it’s obvious to me that his heart is probably in the right place…or is he just another salesman trying to sell stuff. I don’t know enough about Greg yet to have an opinion.
As far as Vendors sponsoring stuff…why not? Why not let the people who want to make money from us support some of our causes with sponsorships. I don’t think any of us are forced to use their products if they sponsor an event. Heck I have held a ton of seminars while being a Realtor and they were always sponsored by one of my Vendors (mortgage or title company). When I first started it was the only way I could afford to pay for the seminars.
After all is said and done, we are all here to earn an honest living. As long as you can look in the mirror each night and truly believe you are being the best person you can be and you are honestly trying to help people succeed, then there is no reason to not market your product. I believe that both Vendors and Realtors can co-exist. We, the Realtors, have to make sure that what we purchase we buy because the company can prove their abilities. If they can, then just maybe they can help you become more successful in this business. I am a capitalist and I am proud to be able to make decisions for myself. My guess if others are being “sold” a bill of goods and can’t recognize that, then maybe they shouldn’t be self employed. I have made a ton of mistakes (about 1/2 million or so since in Real Estate) but I learn from my mistakes. If someone says they are that good, then let them know they have the burden of proof or you are not buying. No proof, no deal!
June 18, 2008 — 9:28 am
Greg Cremia says:
Selling CDs, tickets to seminars, and other educational material to agents can not in any way be compared to selling clients to agents. Case closed.
June 18, 2008 — 10:43 am
Greg Swann says:
Teri Lussier: > I don’t think I’m hurting Greg’s feelings by saying that he’s not quite so likable
Hard to love, easy to hate, impossible to ignore. That works for me.
Greg Cremia: > Selling CDs, tickets to seminars, and other educational material to agents can not in any way be compared to selling clients to agents. Case closed.
Indeed, but I would go a step further. Cows are milked with regularity, but they are never cured of the bad habit of allowing themselves to be milked. The content we produce is devised to help real estate professionals achieve the greatest possible level of independence — from everyone, including us. If you pay to see us a second time, you should expect — and demand — new value for your money.
June 18, 2008 — 11:04 am
Genuine Chris Johnson says:
re: new value.
maybe, but there’s benefit in repetition. Massive firehose dumps work, but if you’re focusing on staying tough enough to bang the doors and do the work, you become unstoppable.
June 18, 2008 — 12:14 pm
Dan Sullivan - Denver Real Estate says:
Greg;
Any word on when the DVD’s for Unchained will be available. I can’t wait to see what I missed.
Thanks,
Dan
June 18, 2008 — 12:35 pm
Barry Cunningham says:
Why is it that those in the real estate world find themselves different than other segments of society.
We are bombarded daily with marketing and advertising messages, even when you don’t know you are being marketed to..you are still being marketed to. Most people I speak with when I consult with them about marketing have no idea to what lengths companies go to to get your attention.
Bottom line, if you don’t need it, if it does not help you, then don’t buy it.
On the other hand calling companies out for the mere fact that they are marketing is absurd.
I bet many of us new someone who thought a slinky or pet rock was cool. I bet we all have eaten at McDonald’s as well.
It amazes me the ponytification that goes on denigrating “vendors” for plying their craft. It’s their BUSINESS!!
Don’t like it, don’t buy it..can’t fault them for marketing. That, In my opinion is foolish.
June 18, 2008 — 12:57 pm
Teri Lussier says:
>On the other hand calling companies out for the mere fact that they are marketing is absurd.
I missed that. Where did that happen?
June 18, 2008 — 1:04 pm
Greg Swann says:
> Any word on when the DVD’s for Unchained will be available. I can’t wait to see what I missed.
We got the authored masters back last night. We’ll be out for manufacturing later this week, so we should be shipping in a couple more weeks. It turns out to be a much more complicated process than streaming MP4s to the web. Sorry for delay.
June 18, 2008 — 1:32 pm
Barry Cunningham says:
Hi Teri…maybe I misread…just checked..I didn’t. I’m not interjecting for the sake of causing a comment war here, just that outside of real estate I have never heard of 3rd party products referred to as “vendors” like they slithering masses seeking to prey upon their customer.
Simply put, restaurants are called upon all the time by their purveyors and those trying to sell to them. Dosctors are visited by pharmeceutical companies, plumbers by fixture manufacturers, paint companies by paint manufacturers..what makes a real estate agent think that this is some kind of uique business activity?
Greg said the following statement..”I want for the very best real estate professionals to reach a state where they are beyond competition in their own markets; where they don’t have to ransom their own lives over and over again — to vendors…”
Terui that seems kind of strong does it not? Let’s say for example a camera company comes out with a new easy to use video camera and that company sees a market where a realtor might find use for such a device and begins pitching its viability to realtors. And then imagine a blog and an event speak highly of its virtue and ease of use.
Then it would seem that it’s okay for SOME “vendors” to market to real estate agents.
So perhaps Greg’s statement should have read:
“I want for the very best real estate professionals to reach a state where they are beyond competition in their own markets; where they don’t have to ransom their own lives over and over again — to those vendors that we don’t want to buy from and don’t think you should either.”
I understand that real estate agents, some anyway, feel like they are taking “shit” from “vendors”…I just did not realize Teri, that some realtors who felt this way did not realize where in this message that it said that.
I may be wrong but sure seemed like that’s what it was saying to me.
In any event, as it has been and will be, Greg’s feeling towards “vendors” won’t change becasue of anything I say…or for that matter what anybody else says…so it really doesn’t matter does it?
June 18, 2008 — 2:42 pm
Teri Lussier says:
Hey Barry-
I don’t think there’s a comment war here. I just thought that I had missed a comment about marketing being a bad thing. So much of what is discussed on BHB is marketing, that your comment stood out.
>what makes a real estate agent think that this is some kind of uique business activity?
I think the point here, my interpretation anyway, is that most real estate agents would agree with you. BHBU is about opening the eyes of the real estate industry that we don’t neccesarily need what companies are selling. It’s about thinking, seriously thinking about our needs are, and can I replicate that product on my own? Can I come up with an alternative? Many products that are sold to realtors are replicable and not needed.
Just like a restuaranteur would woo a great veggie vendor, (and I’ve always heard them referred to as vendors) if they added value to the restuarant, they would throw a widget salesman out on their ear if what they were selling was an overpriced useless restuarant widget.
Real estate example: A WordPress.org blog has to be hosted somewhere, that needs to be paid for by the realtor. That requires contracting with a vendor, but we get a lot in return. I love WP for all the cool benefits it gives me. Disclosure: My blog is hosted by Greg, I don’t pay, but I know someone here in town who I would certainly pay to host that for me. He’s a vendor, I appreciate all he can do, he would be worth the money. Does that make sense? I have paid marketers for marketing, it’s something that I was unable to do myself, it’s valuable to me and my business, there is some real worth there.
Barry, it’s not anti-capitalism, it’s prove your worth or get to stepping. That *is* capitalism, the free market, and simply good business. 🙂
June 18, 2008 — 3:56 pm
Barry Cunningham says:
Hi Teri..I must have interpreted this statement:
“You will know when BloodhoundBlog has attained its goals when there is no more carney-barker jive to be found anywhere in real estate.”
Where are the “carney barkers” in real estate?
You wrote “BHBU is about opening the eyes of the real estate industry that we don’t neccesarily need what companies are selling”
Isn’t ironic, that you feel it’s important for agents to realize that they can… “replicate that product on my own? Can I come up with an alternative? Many products that are sold to realtors are replicable and not needed.”…when at the same time keep defending to the consumer that they somehow can’t do the same thing as realtors for a lot less money?
I am not singling you out by any means. But if the message is we think vendors are blood suckers because they try to sell us stuff that we can replicate for cheaper…it’s actually more than an ironic statement..it’s actually quite hypocritical isn’t it?
Not looking to fire up a commission relevance war by any means but the statement of replication is a double edged sword.
What’s the argument I keep reading…something about you would’nt operate on yourself or wouldn’t represent yourself in Court so why sell your house on your own?
Yet, hey the vendor is a blood sucker and I don’t need him and don’t need to spend money on him because I can “replicate that product on my own?”
What’s the difference?
Just like you wrote above when your words painted such a great picture when you said the restaurant owner “would throw a widget salesman out on their ear if what they were selling was an overpriced useless restuarant widget”…aren’t your words actually underscoring what so many Sellers and realtor critics have been saying about the value of real estate agents?
If a vendor is a “carney barker” and someone whose wares “can be replicated” and you are looking for the day when you don’t have to take “shit from vendors” and the message is to learn how to do it yourself so you don’t have to pay for it…isn’t that the exact same problem many people are having with the buinsess model of most real estate agents?
The parallel is quite paradoxical wouldn’t you agree?
June 18, 2008 — 4:33 pm
Teri Lussier says:
>isn’t that the exact same problem many people are having with the buinsess model of most real estate agents?
Yes. And that’s another thing I work very hard to do- prove my worth or get to stepping. If someone else can sell their home better for less, then they absolutely should. No argument from me.
If we, as realtors, can’t prove our worth, then it’s time for the homeowners to quit taking shit from morons. If I prove to be one of those morons, then I don’t deserve the job.
You, Barry Cunningham, may or may not need real estate agents. There are people who do. I try very hard to earn their business, but don’t begrudge anyone who chooses to do business another way. I LOVE the free market.
I’d very much like for the real estate industry to change, but right here in this comment thread, I’m explaining my opnions, my thoughts, my desire not to ever take shit from morons. YMoronsMV. 🙂
June 18, 2008 — 4:52 pm
Teri Lussier says:
>If someone else can sell their home better for less
In a hurry, poorly stated, should have said- If someone can do a better job without paying a real estate commission…
June 18, 2008 — 4:58 pm
Matthew Hardy says:
While there is still plenty of physical vendor crap available, it’s the digital stuff that agents really get suckered for. That kind of vendor crap exists because nearly every technology vendor sells via a subscription model. They’ve made their calculations – they know the average income of real estate agents as well as the industry attrition rates – so selling the lie that there is an “automatic button” for success is their real offering.
I got into the business I’m in because of seeing the vast disparity between vendor offerings in real estate as compared to other industries. I see this disparity as an opening – to facilitate an agent’s ability to leverage their work for their own maximum benefit.
Just as there are bone-headed realtors the public should avoid at all costs, there are highly conscientious, customer-loving real estate professionals who deserve their higher-than-average commissions. This holds true everywhere.
A second major reason there is so much crap is that many agents continue to rely upon their franchise for advice. Every major company has “approved vendor lists” comprised of items that have not been tested or even reviewed. What does it take to get on one of these lists? Large cash payments; pure and simple. Just listen for the tout: “we provide only the most advanced cutting-edge tools for our agents!”
I’ll never forget meeting the CEO of a large real estate company who wanted to buy our company because he saw it as a way to put “another set of golden handcuffs” on his agents. Nice, huh?
I based my current work on the inevitability of disintermediation in the real estate industry. It’s great to watch it continue to unfold before my eyes.
June 18, 2008 — 5:22 pm
Greg Swann says:
Bless you, Matthew. You are a bountiful gift of the mind. We use Matthew’s product, Real Estate Success Tools because he has built a mission-critical tool at the right price — with no monthly charges for “blades” — nor any upgrade fees of any kind.
June 18, 2008 — 5:34 pm
Barry Cunningham says:
@ Teri…”I LOVE the free market”
I could not agree more and wish more realtors had your attitude! Very cool in being willing to say wha you said about stepping out if you could prove your worth. Hat tip to you!
June 18, 2008 — 6:32 pm
Matthew Hardy says:
Bless you sir! I’ll cheer for what BHB is bringing from any corner you’ll let me.
June 18, 2008 — 6:47 pm
Tom Vanderwell says:
just that outside of real estate I have never heard of 3rd party products referred to as “vendors” like they slithering masses seeking to prey upon their customer.
Barry, I think that’s because, outside of real estate and mortgage lending (and maybe the used car business) the suppliers don’t behave the way that many of them do in our world?
Greg – correct me if I’m wrong, but the point that I took from all of this is that what you are striving for is a business arena where there is a very clear “produce or get out” mentality. If someone (like Matthew) has a great software product that helps Realtors, great, let him sell to Realtors. But if someone is trying sell a subscription to something of questionable value and doing it in a way that isn’t honest and upright, then get out!
You sell houses, I sell money, my brother in law sells cut meat (he’s a butcher), we all sell something. It’s the honesty, the integrity and the forthrightness that we do it with that matters.
Do the right thing no matter what.
If I can help you navigate through this real estate and mortgage market, give me a call.
Tom Vanderwell
(616) 292-7559
Thomas.vanderwell@53.com
June 18, 2008 — 7:23 pm
Greg Swann says:
You’ve got it dead on, Tom. Real estate is infested with hucksters selling three-dollar eggs. The show floors at Inman Connect and the NAR Convention are their carnivals, where they can con naive Realtors and lenders with useless and/or overpriced crap marketed with fear, uncertainty and doubt. I should start doing a spam-of-the-day post, to illustrate the garbage that gets pitched to me every day. It’s absolutely true that not every vendor is a blood-sucker, but every blood-sucker in real estate is Bloodhound food, you have my word on it.
Note however that this is only a piece of the topic. What I said was:
It is possible, right now, to be a “top-producer” and yet retain less than twenty-five cents on the dollar of Gross Commission Income — before taxes. That’s obscene. I want to do everything I can to help people get that number as close to one dollar per dollar of GCI as I can. You have to spend money to make money, but you don’t have to pay ransom to people who make their living by getting in your way.
June 18, 2008 — 7:44 pm
Tom Vanderwell says:
Greg,
Thanks for the compliment. Glad to know I was reading you correctly.
I understand the “other part” of it much better too. I’ve taken a different “approach” to the acquistion cost side of mortgage lending than many do and it’s worked very well for me. I’m not down to Zero, but it’s a pretty manageable number. (And yes, I know it’s a totally different ball game on your side of the fence – different ball game but the same sport.)
Tom
🙂
June 18, 2008 — 7:48 pm