There were a number of interesting articles last week regarding the value of a real estate agent. Essentially asking the agent to justify their commission. I know it got heated up over on Active Rain and there was some discussion on AgentGenius as well. Here at BHB we enjoyed two very good posts. You can read Brian Brady’s post here and Barry Cunningham’s post here. I disagree with both of them, which is all the more reason to recommend you read them. That and the fact that they are both very good reads.
Let’s Clarify the Question
First things first: the timing of the whole “justify your commission” question is counter-intuitive. It is coming up a lot lately, yet one would expect clients to question commissions when home sales are rapid and appreciation high. During those periods it appears simple to sell a home but, probably because of the prices being greater than the seller assumed, we rarely hear this conversation. Yet times like the current, when homes are not selling and people are most in need of a professional agent, you get the most questions about commissions. This has a lot to do with the fact that they are making less money than they expected. So let’s start by clarifying the true nature of the question. It has little to do with the agents’ value and everything to do with the clients’ profit.
Also, the question of value is directed primarily to the listing agent. There are some who will question the selling agent about their commission and they will do so regardless of the market. But for the vast majority of clients the selling agent has very little to do with this conversation. Why? Because the selling agent’s commission is already loosely tied to the market and so a function of supply and demand more than intrinsic value. When homes are moving quickly and inventory is small, the seller and the listing agent discuss what to pay the selling agent and often arrive at 2.5% or even 2% because there is no demand to pay them more (supply of buyers is high). When the market is slow like it is now, we begin to see the seller and listing agent raise the selling agent’s commission to 3%, 3.5% and even 4% because demand is high (supply of buyers is low). It is the movement of homes that dictates the selling agent’s commission. The discussion of an agent’s value (as far as the consumer is concerned) is a discussion of the listing agent’s value.
The discussion of an agent’s value (as far as the consumer is concerned) is a discussion of the listing agent’s value and it has less to do with the agents’ value and more to do with the clients’ profit. Finally, this discussion engages two distinct groups: experienced agents and new agents.
DOLLARS VS EXPERIENCE
Brian’s article suggests a method of valuing your services based on dollarization. In the comments you can read Allen Butler give one example of this principle and in the comment string of Brian’s post on Active Rain you can read a literal demonstration by Brian himself. Barry’s article, on the other hand, suggests that your experience is the driving force behind your value. He lists a set of soul-searching questions that are nothing short of brilliant. I highly suggest the exercises in both articles as a tool to assess yourself and your concept of your own value, but I doubt if they will help you with the question of value to your clients.
A list of your experiences, past transactions, back office support and so on, no matter how detailed, reflects more on your longevity than your value. A trully free market would force longevity and value to be closely aligned – in which case I would agree strongly with Barry’s points – but I think we can all draw up a long list of agents that provide little value and yet have managed to continue doing real estate transactions for years. Chalk that up to uninformed clientele and an industry suffering from low self-esteem made happy by growing membership rather than inspiring excellence. Further hindering us is the question of what our new agents are to do. They certainly can and do provide value, yet how does a new agent relate their value without a history of experience?
Using this second group (new agents) will also make plain the problem with dollarization. Using this method you explain your value in real dollar amounts to justify your commission. These dollar amounts are not so much the cost of doing business as the value of benefits the client receives from doing business with you. Yet how to assign those values? It is all quite subjective. No one of us can actually show that by using my service your house sold for more or in shorter time. This is an estimate at best and self-serving at worse. If we base our value on historical numbers, as Allen did, it looks better but still suffers from the same illness: we do not actually know what would have happened in any reality other than the one that we know. A lesser agent may have taken the listing and sold it in half the time because they had a sister looking for a home just like that. We just don’t know. So the dollarization method is a fancier method of expressing value, but no more valid than just saying: “I am worth this much because that is how good I am.” How can it be measured? The problem becomes even clearer when we bring in that pesky group of new agents again. Their response to the question would, of necessity, be framed with words like: “in my estimation I will sell for more” and “in my opinion I will sell faster” and so on. Without the false validity stamp of: past predicts future they are forced to admit the subjective nature of dollarization.
SO WHAT’S YOUR BIG IDEA?
In the end we need only remember that the question of value is a question asked by sellers and asked when times are tough. They are saying “I am not going to make what I expected. Why should I pay you this much? What are you going to do that makes you worth more than the agent that just left, pitching his discounted rate?” In other words: what is your unique selling proposition? Or, to put it in a question format more familiar still: What is your marketing plan?
Yes, yes, I hear the groans. This is nothing new and not nearly so exciting as a new method of valuation or a long list of accomplishments. But the bottom line is simple: you are being hired to sell a home. Your value is directly tied to that event and your ability to accomplish that event, which is to say your value is your marketing plan. And that marketing plan – that answer to the question of value – is conveyed in your listing presentation. I would estimate that over 90% of agents do not use a formal listing presentation. I would also bet dollars to donuts the small number who do use one get very few “what are you worth” questions.
I have read Russel Shaw discuss this and, while I have not asked him directly, I am going to go out on a limb and say he does not have any difficulty with the question of his commission. I have not asked Greg Swann this question either. But when he shows up on a listing appointment with examples of single site home blogs and custom designed yard signs I doubt he has a problem either. Given the anecdotal success I see by those who use a scripted, well designed and topical listing presentation, it boggles the mind that so few do. The answer, I think, lies with scripting and the common fear of a script sounding stale. Brian Brady said it best when he said “people don’t use scripts because they suck at scripts.”
CONCLUSION
I work with an agent here in San Diego that has possibly the finest listing presentation I have ever seen. When he sits down on an appointment his script goes roughly like this:
My professional fee is 3% and it is non-negotiable. When we are done with my presentation you will know why I am worth every penny and you will want to hire me. The question you have to work on is this: How much do you want to compensate the buyer’s agent?
The value of your service, and the justification of your commission, lies in how well you will do the job for which you are hired. Your marketing plan is the best indication of what to expect and an honest, well designed listing presentation is how you convey that plan. If you wish to earn top dollar then your plan of action for your client must be top dollar. If your listing presentation exhibits that top dollar plan, you will rarely have to justify your commission to your clients.
PS
I just finished listening to Brian on www.realestateradiousa.com discussing these issues again with Barry. (If you missed the broadcast I HIGHLY suggest going on line and listening to it. They discuss how to handle this question very well.) Interestingly enough, however, Brian validated his value by giving his “listing presentation” as a mortgage originator. Barry also gave a 5 Point treatise on improving the very image of being an agent. A long resume was not included, but a top-notch listing presentation was. The only time dollarization came up was when Brian mentioned that, following the dollarization of your services to yourself you will come to know an hourly rate for your sevices. You must then look in the mirror and decide if you actually feel justified at that rate. Use Brian and Barry’s posts to assess yourself. Then make sure you have a listing presentation that reflects your value to the client.
Greg Swann says:
Well. I like your approach much better. I would much rather talk about all the stuff that we do that no one we compete against does. If I’m going to build a bullet chart, I want to leave everyone else unarmed.
> I have not asked Greg Swann this question either. But when he shows up on a listing appointment with examples of single site home blogs and custom designed yard signs I doubt he has a problem either.
We almost always list at 5% right now, 2% to us, 3% to the buyer’s agent. We do this, first, because commission is the one fall-back weapon other agents can use against us. We can say, “You’ll get the kind of marketing plan other Realtors can’t even touch — and we’ll undercut them on price.” The second reason is that we are not (nearly) as busy as we plan to be. When we’re listing a half-a-million dollars a week, we’ll bump the price to 6%. When we get busier than that, we’ll go to 7%, 4% to us. Our goal is to bring so much value to our clients that they would not even consider going to anyone else. We already turn down a lot more listings than we take — but we hope to be able to do less of that when the market turns.
The other end of this is, we take a $1,500 non-refundable retainer on the way in. We’re going to spend a lot more than that before we hit the MLS, and we want to be sure our sellers are with us for the long haul. If you want to find out if you can really sell, ask for a retainer on your listings.
> Given the anecdotal success I see by those who use a scripted, well designed and topical listing presentation, it boggles the mind that so few do.
We prepare hard for listing appointments, but we don’t have a scripted presentation. We always know what we plan to say, and we know our answers to any objections that might come up, so that may qualify as being scripted. But our presentation is a lot more like an after-dinner conversation, and we let it flow to see what specific concerns emerge. We take a lot of pricing and marketing support material with us, but we almost never take listing paperwork. We tell our sellers to think about what we’ve said and to shop around until they are sure we are the listers they want to marry — and we express it that way, as a marriage. Not everyone loves us at the end of the process, but many do — which is great for referrals. But we want to know for sure that they love us more than anyone else on the way in.
March 24, 2008 — 3:43 pm
Brian Brady says:
I love the offered example of the super listing agent (in San Diego), Sean. Doesn’t he “set the stage” for value-building, though?
I think the problem consumers, the Barrys, and I have is the unwillingness to define value for the fees charged. I choose the dollarization method. Greg (and your cited agent) build so much value into the presentation that the fee is a “bargain”. Russell and Jeff Brown bring decades of verifiable results to the table.
Don’t we all learn something from the advanced salesmanship techniques we all discuss?
March 24, 2008 — 4:24 pm
Sean Purcell says:
Greg,
When we’re listing a half-a-million dollars a week, we’ll bump the price to 6%. When we get busier than that, we’ll go to 7%, 4% to us.
That is a perfect example of understanding your value. Commissions are not only negotiable but they are subject to free market economics. Better still, if someone were to ask you “Why 7%?” following your presentation, the answer is simple and extremely valid: “Because of everything I just showed you, demand for us is high and supply of us is low. Our clients see the value and are willing to pay to get the best.”
(W)e take a $1,500 non-refundable retainer… If you want to find out if you can really sell, ask for a retainer on your listings.
I love this. Brian Brady and I were just discussing upfront fees in the mortgage field and I did not make the leap to real estate. Going forward can you share with us the response you get? I think everyone would be interested.
March 24, 2008 — 4:42 pm
Sean Purcell says:
Brian,
Doesn’t he “set the stage” for value-building? … I think the problem consumers, the Barrys, and I have is the unwillingness to define value for the fees charged
I couldn’t agree more on all points. He not only sets the stage, he deliveres the entire play. Agents unwilling (or, more likely, unable) to define their value are the group I am addressing.
This may be nit-picky, but my contention is not simply that the best way for agents to help themselves is to create a dynamite listing presentation. My contention is it’s the only way to justify your value. I think Russell Shaw is doing the same thing that Greg and Darel (my named agent) are doing. (Jeff being in commercial, I suspect his clientele and his approach may be different as to delivery, but I would wager the result is still an expertly delivered marketing plan).
I am a big fan of the dollarization method of assessing value, but I still question its compatability with real estate. I contest that the industry is too subjective for that to be effective.
I do agree with your over-arching point: agents should be able to explain and justify their commission with ease. Much the way they are able to articulate their USP… right? 😉
March 24, 2008 — 4:55 pm
Greg Swann says:
> Going forward can you share with us the response you get? I think everyone would be interested.
So far, we have not had any trouble getting the retainer once we explain why we ask for it. It’s possible it could have become a stumbling block with listings we had already decided not to take, but we have no way of knowing that. Frankly, I think our sample size is too small to draw any decent conclusions. In most cases, sellers call us for listing appointments because of their awareness of work we have done in the past — the home-run school of marketing:
In virtually all of those cases, the listing is ours to turn down, but we still do everything I described. We want to make absolutely sure that everything is in place for a happy marriage, so we pre-nup the whole process — even if the seller just wants to elope, as it were.
To further extend the metaphor, most of what we do consists of lessons we learned by going through unhappy divorces. We know from experience that the things we do work — and we won’t not do them. If there is any resistance to the way we want to represent the home, we turn down the listing. In a span of eleven days, late last year, we turned down over $3 million in new listings — including our first shot at million-dollar home. But every one of those houses is still unsold, despite repeated price reductions.
We spend a lot more out-of-pocket — which means, not counting our labor — than the amount of the retainer, and there is no profit for us if the home does not sell. We won’t list a home unless we are 100% confident we can get it sold at our price on our timetable. Even then, we’re not always 100% right. But every time in the past that we have betrayed our own marketing plan at the seller’s behest, we have lost money and cost ourselves good will. We won’t do that any longer.
We have absolutely no doubt that the skills and tactics we bring to our clients make a decisive difference in sales price, time on market and overall satisfaction with the process. Richard Riccelli can sell his home by-owner as well as we could do the job for him. Almost no one else can. Sellers are hiring us to sell their homes, but we’re hiring them, too — to give us their homes to sell. We go in with the understanding that we are going to do our work our way, and we won’t work with people who won’t let us. In that respect, the retainer should prove to be a good tool, in the long run, for helping us distinguish the one from the other.
March 24, 2008 — 5:33 pm
Sean Purcell says:
We spend a lot more out-of-pocket… than the amount of the retainer, and there is no profit for us if the home does not sell. We won’t list a home unless we are 100% confident we can get it sold at our price on our timetable
I imagine you do not list your costs as a part of your value justification and I agree with Brian’s point in discussing dollarization that the costs are not what value is based on. Having said that though, this is one tough closing to follow…
March 24, 2008 — 6:37 pm
ines says:
I’m looking at the 3 different viewpoints with a smile because they clearly come from a mortgage broker – an investor and a Realtor.
Although I don’t agree with a lot, I have learned from all 3 posts a great deal – one lesson about perspective, the other about personality. I don’t care what anyone says about our industry, it’s colorful and fun.
March 24, 2008 — 7:06 pm
Sean Purcell says:
Ines,
I don’t care what anyone says about our industry, it’s colorful and fun.
IMHO you just nailed the best part about long term success in this industry: this IS fun 🙂
March 24, 2008 — 7:17 pm
Louis Cammarosano says:
Sean
You are correct-the value of a “disintermediator” like a real estate agent (between a buyer and a seller) actually rises when times are tough and people are and should be willing to pay more for the service.
I predicted as such at the beginning of this year that realtors’ commissions would rise this year.http://blog.homegain.com/ten-real-estate-predictions-2008
Homegain, another famous intermediator, has been able to raise our prices in selected markets as the value of what we provide becomes more necessary in a difficult market.
http://www.homegain.com/agent/realestateagent?entryid=10494
March 24, 2008 — 7:48 pm
Eric Blackwell says:
First off, great conversation and I’m with Ines. I can see three distinct and very advanced selling techniques on display here with some great points made all around. No time to go into what I learned from each, because there was a bunch.
I am impressed with the idea of a $1,500 retainer. You’re right Greg, that’s when you know if you are selling.
This market does cause people to value agents who MARKET. It likewise tends to ‘retire’ agents who just LIST. An agent who ‘lists’ not only doesn’t sell what they DO, they ‘do’ far less than they should and simply rely on the MLS to carry the heavy water.
@Louis- interesting point. I didn’t realize you were from HomeGain. More on that in an upcoming post about eyeball aquisition – grin.
Best;
Eric
March 25, 2008 — 2:47 am
Annie Maloney says:
@ Greg – Interesting. $1,500 retainer. What do you do when they tell you that they don’t have the money to pay you until the home sells? I particularly like the idea that my % is non-negotiable, what would you like to pay the buyers agent. It drives me crazy to watch Realtors take on listings that are over priced and do nothing but let them sit on the MLS.
March 25, 2008 — 6:56 am
Greg Swann says:
> What do you do when they tell you that they don’t have the money to pay you until the home sells?
😉 We’ve never had that happen. Normally, we also need our sellers to spend significant sums on the house, too, so they have to have money somewhere. We know from experience that many of the things we do don’t work very well on tract homes. I sometimes list investor-owned houses in the suburbs — using a substantially different praxis — but our bread-and-butter listings are historic, architecturally-interesting or luxury homes in fairly prosperous neighborhoods.
> I particularly like the idea that my % is non-negotiable, what would you like to pay the buyers agent.
We don’t do this. We always pay buyer’s agents the customary amount. We won’t pay bonuses, since this induces an agency violation, but we will protect the buyer’s agent’s commission under all circumstances. We want nothing to do with dual agency, so we will pay a buyer’s agent who makes his first appearance two minutes before Close of Escrow.
March 25, 2008 — 8:00 am
Sean Purcell says:
Louis,
I agree with you, but reluctantly. Some agents still fear disintermediation (an unfounded concern, IMHO). The fact is, however, that all agents are, by definition, intermediaries. I would still not refer to them as such. It sounds a bit pejorative.
I believe agents bring so much value to the transaction (well… most agents 🙂 anyway) that they are more correctly referred to as consultants, marketing directors and so on. (No, I am not suggesting these as titles for the business card – only pointing out the many areas of expertise required.)
I am not sure if you were mistaken or sarcastic when you referred to an agent as a disintermediator…
March 25, 2008 — 10:11 am
Sean Purcell says:
Eric,
An agent who ‘lists’ not only doesn’t sell what they DO, they ‘do’ far less than they should and simply rely on the MLS to carry the heavy water.
Bullseye. Add to which, as the MLS is disintermediated the heavy water will drown them. 🙂
March 25, 2008 — 10:13 am
Sean Purcell says:
Annie,
It drives me crazy to watch Realtors take on listings that are over priced and do nothing but let them sit on the MLS
Talk about being a drain on the market. Does anyone still believe that any listing is a good listing?
March 25, 2008 — 10:16 am
Louis Cammarosano says:
Hi Sean
It all depends on your bias.
For those that hate Realtors or HomeGain and view us as officious intermeddlers that add no value, use those claims to justify calling us disintermediators.
For those, however, that believe that Realtors, or HomeGain add value to the process, then you are correct, the term disintermediator is pejorative.
March 25, 2008 — 10:33 am
Sean Purcell says:
Greg,
As great as this idea is, it is good to hear that you do not apply it to all listings. I was racking my brain trying to figure out how to get $1500 from a seller teetering on foreclosure.
As for the buyer’s agent commission, I don’t believe Darel actually offers anything less than the customary amount. This is more of a transitional aspect of his “script” to move the client away from challenging him on his professional fee, at least until he can give them the full presentation.
March 25, 2008 — 10:34 am
Bawldguy Talking says:
Sean — You’re screwin’ the pooch big guy. When you set your gold standard as high as your first two posts…
As you’re aware, I’m jumping back into the San Diego investment property market as a lister. I’ve been ignoring my home folks since late ’03.
Like Greg, I’m gonna be offering a broadly different choice for the seller. I’ll charge NO listing commission, but a small monthly fee for ongoing marketing, and my carrying costs at Starbucks.
This post has left me smiling ear to ear.
March 25, 2008 — 9:23 pm
Sean Purcell says:
Jeff,
I’m jumping back into the San Diego investment property market as a lister… I’ll charge NO listing commission…
And that, fellow bloodhounds, is how you make the competition empathize with the pooch. 😉
March 25, 2008 — 10:06 pm
Bob says:
It is important to note that charging upfront fees is illegal in some states, such as California.
March 25, 2008 — 10:55 pm
Sean Purcell says:
Bob,
Thank you for an important comment. I try very hard to steer clear of legal issues, especially on a site with national reach. But your point is one that MUST be mentioned.
Having said that I will now proceed to put foot in mouth. 🙂 It may be permissable to charge up front for third party fees in CA (appraisal, processing, etc.). I DO NOT KNOW THIS TO BE FACT and I welcome further comment.
March 26, 2008 — 8:08 am
Greg Swann says:
Redfin charges a processing fee in California for listings, with the commission paid at COE. FWIW, I think a non-refundable flat fee is the ideal way to price a limited-service listing. Does that imply that forbidding upfront fees is a way to inhibit those kinds of business models?
March 26, 2008 — 8:29 am
Sean Purcell says:
There may be a legitimate reason to protect consumers from scams by the prohibition of upfront fees… in much the same way many states protect clients from the hassle of having do keep their own money by prohibiting real estate rebates.
March 26, 2008 — 10:56 am