From the Arizona Republic (tipped by Adam Tarr and Sharon Kotula):
An Arizona regulatory board has ordered Zillow.com to stop offering its online estimates of home values.
The Arizona Board of Appraisal has issued two cease and desist letters to the popular real estate Web site, claiming Zillow needs an appraiser license to offer its “zestimates” in Arizona.
“It is the board’s feeling that (Zillow) is providing an appraisal,” said Deborah Pearson, Board of Appraisal executive director.
This would be in contra-distinction to all the other Automated Valuation Methods operating in the state, some of which are actually used by lenders to underwrite home loans.
All last year, I wondered when the appraisers were going to rise up and rail about consumer-level AVMs. Today was that day, it seems.
This is Rotarian Socialism in action. The so-called regulatory body serves at the beck and call of the putatively-regulated industry. They have no hope of doing anything but making themselves look ridiculous in public, but they have to answer to their allegedly regulated masters no matter what.
If this kind of corruption is just now making you sick — you haven’t been paying attention…
Further notice: Official Zillow.com response from David Gibbons:
Lloyd Frink, Zillow’s President asked me to convey this official response to you, Greg:
“We strongly believe that providing Zestimates in Arizona is completely legal (and in fact an important public service), given that Zestimates are the result of our ‘automated valuation model’ and are not a formal appraisal. The Arizona Board of Appraisals relies on USPAP, the national professional standards for appraisers, and USPAP Advisory Opinion to determine propriety of activities. Here is the relevant opinion on this matter (Advisory Opinion 18): http://commerce.appraisalfoundation.org/html/2006%20USPAP/ao18.htm As you can see, it reads: ‘The output of an AVM is not, by itself, an appraisal.'”
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Technorati Tags: arizona, arizona real estate, disintermediation, phoenix, phoenix real estate, real estate, real estate marketing
Jay Thompson says:
How utterly ridiculous
April 13, 2007 — 8:33 pm
Brian Brady says:
I imagine that AZ Banking (DFI) will be cracking down on bankrate.com next.
Hey…that’s not a bad idea!
April 13, 2007 — 9:48 pm
shaun mclane says:
As a real estate broker in Orlando, I’m glad to see Zillow getting some heat – that just means they’re doing the right thing! Keep up the good work Zillow!
April 14, 2007 — 10:30 am
Greg Swann says:
> I’m glad to see Zillow getting some heat – that just means they’re doing the right thing!
Hmm… Heat in the form of opinions is one thing. This is heat from people with guns.
April 14, 2007 — 10:43 am
shaun mclane says:
“Hmm… Heat in the form of opinions is one thing. This is heat from people with guns.”
True, but I think Zillow has the upper hand here.
April 14, 2007 — 11:59 am
Mark Ballard says:
Yes, it’s tough to provide specific value assessments.
April 14, 2007 — 12:11 pm
Russell Shaw says:
It is always refreshing to see a group or company go to some government division and attempt to outlaw anything they perceive as possible competition.
Of course the Board of Appraisal will ultimately fail completely at outlawing Zillow in Arizona (or anywhere else),as they should.
Waiving the flag of “We’re here to help the others”, when it is really a lie, is usually pretty easy to spot. I would have more respect for them if they just came out and said, “We want more money for ourselves and are very concerned they might take some of it”.
April 14, 2007 — 1:56 pm
John L. Wake says:
They shouldn’t be called a “Zestimates.” They should be called a “Zallparks” because they are just ballpark estimates.
April 14, 2007 — 2:53 pm
apella says:
The Arizona Board of Appraisals is doing what is in fact required of them as based on USPAP. The Federal Government required states to put in place a governing and regulatory body under Title XI or face the losing of Federal Funding. Title XI requires USPAP as the guiding body for the states regulation. The use of an AVM and how an appraiser uses it is not the issue or why the board most likely did what they did. The problem lies in how USPAP defines what an appraisal is. USPAP opinion 18 is not being referred to in the proper sense here.
I understand that it looks as if the industry is having a problem with competing technology and I admit that there are a lot of appraisers that have a problem with the use of these estimates but the real problem is in how the laws are written.
April 14, 2007 — 7:28 pm
Jay Thompson says:
I’ll freely admit I’m not familiar with Title XI or USPAP. But what I want to know is will the AZBoA send similar cease and desist letters to all the other AVM providers out there? I listed several in my blog post on this. (and there are more). Seems like they’d HAVE to…. Why are they singling out Zillow?
AVMs aren’t all that different from agent generated CMAs. Are those next?
April 14, 2007 — 7:57 pm
Greg Swann says:
Real estate brokers and salespeople are explictly excluded from the statute law, as are certain other parties. The real issue is this: I list a property with my big price rider hanging below. A neighbor comes out of his house, whistles and says, “Too dang much!” He has just commited the same crime Zillow.com is accused of: An unsolicted, uncontracted, uncompensated opinion of value. Zillow is engaged in free speech. So far, the Rotarian Socialists have not managed to outlaw free expression.
April 14, 2007 — 8:14 pm
apella says:
CMA’s and broker price opinions are addressed in most states regulations. The difference in the neighbor stating an opinion is that the neighbor is not offering a value or range of value or an opinion of value to the general public that is a consumer and on a mass level.
This issue is very similar to For Sale By Owner sites that list property. Brokers stated that the FSBO sites were not properly licensed to market property, which the FSBO sites then replied that they were not marketing property but where allowing a marketing means to homeowners that where by law allowed to sell their own property as such they where really just a marketing post boards.
If Zillow only had homeowners state what they (the homeowner only) thought the home was worth then they would be in compliance with state regulations. The issue is not the right to speech as everyone is entitled too and does have their own personal opinion of value but in stead is in how Zillow is offering the value of a property and in such a way as not to be subject to any form of ethics or documeted processes as accepted by law.
April 14, 2007 — 9:55 pm
apella says:
The notice should go out to all that are offering this service in the states jurisdiction.
April 14, 2007 — 9:58 pm
Greg Swann says:
> The difference in the neighbor stating an opinion is that the neighbor is not offering a value or range of value or an opinion of value to the general public that is a consumer and on a mass level.
This makes no difference whatever. Efficient, authoritative speech is still speech. We don’t gain rights by being poor and stupid.
> The issue is not the right to speech as everyone is entitled too and does have their own personal opinion of value but in stead is in how Zillow is offering the value of a property and in such a way as not to be subject to any form of ethics or documeted processes as accepted by law.
Nonsense again. The purpose of occupational laws is to create a cartel — using force to limit supply to the consumer to raise the prices charged by members of the cartel. In any case, Zillow is not performing the functions “regulated” by the cartel: It is not contracting for hire to offer evalutions to buyers, sellers or lenders in the expecation of compensation.
This is protectionist activity by a criminal conspiracy against consumers no different from the National Association of Realtors.
April 14, 2007 — 10:32 pm
P.J. Dean says:
Things must be slow down there at the ol’ state B of A these days!
April 14, 2007 — 10:54 pm
apella says:
I completely agree with the statement that occupational laws are created for the reason that you state.
Compensation would seem to be logical in this consideration of the issue but I am guessing that the Arizona Board of Appraisals is in the right under USPAP because USPAP states that the issue of value in an opinion or range is an appraisal regardless of who pays for an appraisal and that the appraisal is for the benefit of who request it.
Most states see bartering as a form of compensation. By Zillow offering an estimated value or range of value to draw traffic to the site this is their contribution to the parties that is in fact compensating them and that is the advertisers. In all factuality USPAP does not consider compensation as an element of an appraisal.
What Zillow and the others like them will have to do is argue the harm the law does to the consumer. By calling for a cease and desist order the Arizona Board of Appraisal is following the law as it is currently written. I wish Zillow the best of luck and I think that it could be very expensive in legal cost unless they can tackle this on a national level.
One last bit, Arizona also issued warnings this week to appraisers, real estate brokers/agents and mortgages in reference to fraud so this issue may be part of a bigger across the board action.
April 14, 2007 — 11:42 pm
Jeff Kempe says:
Greg…
I’m still not up on internet protocol, but you’ve been quoted and attributed. [http://prosecity.blogspot.com/2007/04/free-market-free-market.html]
This is, of course, manifestly silly and going nowhere.
But if, as is alleged, this is simply the Arizona Board of Appraisal following the law, it speaks to your larger point: the regulated inform the regulators, who inform the lawmakers, who should know better, but don’t. The result is bad law.
April 15, 2007 — 12:04 pm
Greg Swann says:
Excellent, Jeff. This is a great post.
April 15, 2007 — 12:22 pm
Greg W. says:
the main problem with Zillow.com is that most people who use the site assume that the value estimates are very accurate. in reality they can be way off. yes Zillow says its just an estimate but in reality they are being given much more weight by less knowledgeable parties and problems are arising due to this. for example, some FSBO parties are using zillow to price their homes. if the zillow estimate is way off, these people are mispricing their homes. now of course you get what you pay for but as long as they represent their estimates to be accurate you will have these problems.
April 16, 2007 — 11:31 am
Jeff Kempe says:
Thanks, Greg!
From you, high praise. Thanks for the link.
April 16, 2007 — 11:32 am
mike simonsen says:
It’s just fascinating to watch this process. What possible benefit could this group see from their actions?
April 16, 2007 — 11:33 am
Ryan Bailey says:
Hey All,
This is from my blog on my website, I’m an appraiser, so flame away!
I get a lot of emails from people, usually home owners who are about to sell their homes, asking about Zillow, Eppraisal, and various other online property value estimators. They ask whether these programs are accurate and how a real appraisal performed by a Licensed or Certified appraiser is different.
Most of these online property value estimators and automated value models all use public information databases and equations of various complexities to calculate your home’s value. It has been my experience that these estimates can be right on or way, way off.
I see several problems with these value estimators; first, the computer program has no way of knowing what the condition of your property is. Every homeowner knows what a huge factor the condition of the home has on its value. You can imagine how a buyer would react based on the condition. Did you recently remodel your kitchen or is your roof in need of replacement? The computer just doesn’t know.
Second, most computer programs base their value on the square footage reported in public records for your home. Have you physically measured your home? Do you know how to measure a home? Have you ever heard of ANSI Z765-2003? It’s the American National Standard for Single Family Residential Buildings – Method for calculating square footage. There is a pretty good chance the square footage recorded for your home in public records is inaccurate. The odds of a reported square footage being inaccurate go up with the age of you home. Does your home have an addition, garage conversion, or even a basement? The computer has no way of knowing.
Third, most of these computer-based value estimators use nearby recent sales as “comparables” to estimate the value of your home. As an appraiser, I have spent a great deal of time in a class room and even more time in the field learning how to determine whether a property is comparable to another. Have you ever been to a new home subdivision? Did the builder have several sets of models in the same community that were of various size, quality, and price levels? The computer-based systems might use recent sales that are very close to yours but are of totally different quality. Do you know of anyone that recently went through a divorce and had to sell their home or maybe someone who bought a home from a family member? Did these sales accurately represent the real marketplace or did the buyer get a deal on them? Again, what condition where the computer system’s “comparables” in? Where they remodeled or where they in need of major repair? The computer systems don’t know. An appraiser is trained to research the recent sales and determine whether they are truly comparable.
Finally, does the computer system take the current market into account? Your home could be in average condition, have the correct square footage recorded in public records, and the recent sales could all be perfect model-match comparables. The computer system could still be inaccurate if it doesn’t take into account the current marketplace. All but the most technical and expensive computer-based systems look at what happened in the past but have no way of looking at the present time. If the market is going down and their are several listings of the same floor plan of your home on the market for thousands less than those that recently sold, will the computer-based systems take this into account? What happens if the market is going up and demand for your home is skyrocketing?
Computer-based systems have their place. Some banks and lenders use them on a limited basis when the risk factor is low, but nothing can replace a licensed or certified appraiser actually inspecting your property, evaluating the recent sales and current marketplace to report an informed and educated estimated market value for your home. Banks, Realtors, Buyers and Sellers all have motivations that bias their opinions of value to meet their needs.
The Arizona Board of Appraisal is only following the law, they didn’t write the law. The appraisal board consists of volunteers, if you have a real problem with what they are doing step up and volunteer your own time! By the way, it’s not just the appraisal board’s opinion that Zillow is breaking the law, it’s also the Attorney General’s. From the January 2007 Board of Appraisal’s meeting minutes:
“The Board was updated that in addition to the two cease and desist letters issued by the Board to Zillow.com, the Criminal Division of the Assistant Attorney General’s office issued Zillow.com a letter advising of possible criminal violations.” – http://www.appraisal.state.az.us/meetings/0107.pdf
Ryan Bailey
Arizona Certified Appraiser
April 16, 2007 — 11:47 am
Greg Swann says:
> how a real appraisal performed by a Licensed or Certified appraiser is different
I don’t think anyone here will flame you. I expect we all agree wit you: AVMs are not real appraisals.
> The Arizona Board of Appraisal is only following the law
Ergo, that statement cannot possibly be true. Zillow is not doing anything that requires a licence.
Thanks for the PDF link.
April 16, 2007 — 11:57 am
Ryan Bailey says:
Well, according to USPAP and 32-3603, Zillow is providing an opinion of value and does not meet one of the eight entities that 32-3602 doesn’t apply to and therefore are breaking the law. The only real question is whether a Zestimate is an opinion of value.
Chapter 32-3602 of Arizona Law
1. A real estate broker or salesperson who is licensed in this state and who, when acting as such, gives an opinion as to the price of real estate for the purpose of prospective listing or sale if this opinion is not referred to as an appraisal.
2. A natural person, a corporation through its officers or a partnership through its partners that deals in that person’s or its own property and does not receive special compensation for the transaction.
3. An attorney in the performance of that person’s duties as an attorney.
4. A mortgage banker, mortgage broker or commercial mortgage banker who is licensed in this state and who, when acting as such, prepares a report analyzing real property if the report is not made for the primary purpose of establishing the sale or market value of the property.
5. An individual who is otherwise subject to licensing or certification by law and whose duties require appraisal of real property for purposes of tax assessment.
6. A professional engineer or architect registered in this state or a contractor or insurance producer licensed in this state who, when acting as such, prepares a report analyzing real property if the report utilizes the specialized knowledge of the registered professional engineer or architect or the licensed contractor or insurance producer.
7. A property tax agent who is registered in this state and who, when acting as such, prepares a report analyzing real estate if the report is made for purposes of tax assessment or tax valuation of the real estate.
8. An individual appraising real property only for the purpose of providing an opinion in a judicial proceeding or an individual providing an opinion in a judicial proceeding. An individual providing an opinion under the exemption of this paragraph shall not represent or imply in any report or testimony that the individual testifying is licensed or certified under this chapter.
32-3603
A. All real estate appraisals and appraisal reviews performed in this state shall be performed only by individuals licensed or certified in accordance with the requirements of this chapter. No person, other than a state licensed or state certified appraiser, may assume or use that title or any title, designation or abbreviation likely to create the impression of licensure or certification as an appraiser by this state.
B. No person other than a state licensed or state certified appraiser may receive a fee for a real estate appraisal or an appraisal review.
Here are the actual letters that the Arizona of Board of Appraisal sent Zillow.
http://www.workingre.com/workingre/Cease-and-desist-letters-zillow.pdf
Ryan Bailey
Arizona Certified Appraiser
April 16, 2007 — 12:20 pm
Greg Swann says:
Excellent. Thanks for the link to the letters.
As before:
If the law is as you represent it to be, it criminalizes free speech and will be summarily quashed at trial.
April 16, 2007 — 12:27 pm
Ryan Bailey says:
Actually, the example that you provide is very different from what Zillow is doing. The neighbor does not advertise, and as a result does not mislead, to anyone that the value estimate they are providing is or could be accurate or that they are a market expert, Zillow does. (If you want to get technical the neighbor could be a Realtor or meet one of the other seven listed above and therefore be exempt from the law)
As an appraiser I will assure you that I have been to many properties where the homeowner says that Zillow says my house is worth blank and assumes that I will confirm that value in my report.
I have also appraised several properties where the sales price was actually based on Zillow’s figures. In some cases the seller left a lot of money on the table and in other cases the borrower was unable to obtain financing due to an over priced property. People would not base their sales price on Zillow if it was not misleading to the average user that they are providing the market value of their home.
BTW, I am all for a free market, however the majority of the general public would probably fair poorly if no regulations were present.
April 16, 2007 — 12:49 pm
Greg Swann says:
> The neighbor does not advertise
It would make no difference if he did. He has every right to his opinion, and he has every right to express it by any means available to him. There is no distinction between what he is doing and what Zillow is doing. They are equally acts of free speech.
> I will assure you that I have been to many properties where the homeowner says that Zillow says my house is worth blank and assumes that I will confirm that value in my report.
Dang. Ever been on an appraisal where the seller insists he knows more than you? This is his perfect legal right, also.
> I have also appraised several properties where the sales price was actually based on Zillow’s figures.
Ever appraised a house where the seller pulled the sales price out of his ass? In America, we have a right to be wrong.
> People would not base their sales price on Zillow if it was not misleading to the average user that they are providing the market value of their home.
Among many other people, I bitched for months to get robust disclaimers on Zillow.com. If people are too stupid to heed them, that’s their own fault. The Advil bottle gives very concise instructions, but people still manage to get acetaminophen poisoning.
> I am all for a free market, however the majority of the general public would probably fare poorly if no regulations were present.
I’m pretty sure that, taking account that so-called “consumer protection” laws are almost never enforced, we couldn’t possibly be any less safe than we are right now. Even the Emperor can figure out he’s naked once it starts raining.
All that notwithstanding, thanks for taking up this issue.
April 16, 2007 — 1:03 pm
Ryan Bailey says:
Greg, I was merely trying to show how Zillow is perceived by many people in my examples and despite the disclaimers can be misleading. I am not an advocate for anyone on this issue, with the possible exception of the nine members of the Arizona Board of Appraisal who perform a thankless job.
I think the ultimate question is whether a “Zestimate” is considered to be an opinion of value, and therefore a real estate appraisal or not. I know you will say it doesn’t matter, but it is in the law (32-3603) that only a license appraiser can provide such, other than eight exempt entities as described in (32-3602).
I propose that instead of questioning and calling the actions of nine people, who volunteer their own valuable time, corrupt, that you yourself volunteer to be a member of the appraisal board next time a vacancy is present. You then can stop the so-called corruption in action!
From the Arizona Board of Appraisal’s website: http://www.appraisal.state.az.us/
INTERESTED IN SERVING AS A BOARD MEMBER? The Arizona Board of Appraisal consists of nine members appointed by the Governor and confirmed by the Senate. Four members are appraisers: one licensed, one certified residential, one certified general, and one licensed or certified. Three members are public with no personal or business appraisal relationship. One member is a registered property tax agent. One member is employed by a lending institution (cannot be an appraiser). No more than two appraisers from the same appraisal association or organization can serve concurrently. Members serve staggered terms of three years and cannot serve more than two consecutive terms. PRESENT VACANCIES: Two public members (although terms expired in 1/06 and 1/07, members serve until new appointment.) UPCOMING VACANCIES: The next vacancies on the Board will not occur until 1/08, when the following three terms expire: Property Tax Agent member, Public member and Certified Residential Appraiser member.To apply as a Board member go to http://www.governor.state.az.us and click on BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS.
Respectfully,
Ryan Bailey
Arizona Certified Appraiser
April 16, 2007 — 1:54 pm
Greg W. says:
i think the issue comes down to portraying one as an expert.
a homeowner is not a home valuation expert and therefore his opinion of value is fine to give to anyone. no rational person would price their home based on what the neighbor says.
zillow, in theory falls under the same exemption. the problem is that since they do base their value on the home’s physical characteristics as well as the sales in the immediate area, their estimates have the perception of much more validity in the market. as homeowners and mortgage brokers use this perception of validity in their deals, the many inaccurate zestimates cause problems. of course no FSBO home should have their value based on zillow – the problem is its happening now…
April 16, 2007 — 2:20 pm
Greg Swann says:
> no rational person would price their home based on what the neighbor says.
They do it all the time.
In any case, what you’re saying is that dumb people have a greater right to free speech than smart people. That would be a fun game for Saturnalia.
April 16, 2007 — 3:14 pm
Greg Swann says:
> you yourself volunteer to be a member of the appraisal board
I think I’ll pass on this. 😉
April 16, 2007 — 3:17 pm
Ryan Bailey says:
The majority of the people who have written on the blog have no idea of what they are talking about. They are jumping to conclusions. Many people think that just because Zillow estimates the value of a piece of real estate that it somehow competes with real estate appraisers, this couldn’t be more wrong. I, a certified appraiser, refer people to Zillow on a daily basis, usually loan officers. This is a result of a recent interpretation of the Ethics Rule in USPAP. What is USPAP, USPAP stands for the Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice, and in Arizona has been adopted into state law and can be found here:
http://commerce.appraisalfoundation.org/html/2006%20USPAP/toc.htm
All appraisers should follow USPAP, including personal property appraisers, like on the Road Show that you see on TV. Most all real estate appraisers are bound by it. The Ethics Rule, found here: http://commerce.appraisalfoundation.org/html/2006%20USPAP/ethics_rule.htm
has a section titled management. The section includes the following:
It is unethical for an appraiser to accept an assignment, or to have a compensation arrangement for an assignment, that is contingent on any of the following:
1. the reporting of a predetermined result (e.g., opinion of value);
2. a direction in assignment results that favors the cause of the client;
3. the amount of a value opinion;
4. the attainment of a stipulated result; or
5. the occurrence of a subsequent event directly related to the appraiser’s opinions and specific to the assignment’s purpose.
What I am getting at in a long drawn out post is that loan officers, generally from California for some reason, constantly ask us appraisers to “pull comps” for them so they know if a certain program (loan) will work or not for a prospective borrower. They say that if the value is going to be high enough they will send us the order. If you are still reading this far you then you realize that this scenario would be a direct violation of numbers 3 and 4 from the management section of the Ethics Rule. As a result I refer the loan officers to Zillow!! TRUE STORY, not a CANARD!
The appraisal board deems what Zillow is producing is more than a standard AVM since it produces a value range and then goes on to both report it’s conclusion to the untrained public and to report it’s accuracy. The appraisal board is only trying to enforce the laws that are currently on the books, not protect appraisers. People who attack appraisers by saying that they did a drive-by or came in at the exact value of the sale have no idea of what the SCOPE of appraisal was, understand who the client is, what a CERTIFICATION, or what LIMITING CONDITIONS are. The appraisal board does have some bite to it, in addition to being appointed by the Governor and confirmed by the senate the Assistant Attorney General is at all the meetings.
If you think what they are doing is socialism and violates your freedom of speech you need to do some more homework and possibly run for office.
April 18, 2007 — 1:58 pm
Jillayne Schlicke says:
Ryan,
Do the companies that provide automated valuation models (AVMs) have to be licensed as an appraiser in your state?
So, for example, First American Real Estate Solutions has a couple of different AVM products.
http://www.firstamres.com/solutions/property_valuation.jsp
Has Arizona asked FirstamRES to do the same things they are asking of Zillow?
April 18, 2007 — 3:55 pm
Ryan Bailey says:
I am not familiar with what these companies provide. Many AVM companies do have appraisers on the books as employees. However, if a licensed appraiser signs off on an AVM it would be some type of a “Restricted Use” or possibly a “Summary” report and would have to follow the applicable rules set forth in USPAP for reporting in USPAP under Standard 2. The difference I see between Zillow and an AVM is first the extent of usage, the understanding of what the average user is looking at, and the verbiage used (Zillow attests to accuracy – which leads the user to believe that it is accurate). AVM’s are used by industry professionals who know what they are looking at, Zillow is used by the public who doesn’t know what they are looking at. I predict Zillow will simply change some statements they make within their disclaimer and all will go on as normal. This is just my opinion and not a CANARD!
I don’t speak for the Arizona Board of Appraisal, only myself, and I am not aware if the board has asked these other companies to do the same as Zillow. I do know by reading through the meeting minutes and being present at a couple meetings that other individuals and companies have been sent Cease and Desist letters, usually Realtors advertising appraisals instead of a CMA. Common sense, history, and case law all support the fact that it is impractical to address everyone at the same time so you start out with what is deemed as the head of the problem and set an example and precedent accordingly, this is the basis establishing of case law. Once again this just my opinion and not a CANARD!
April 18, 2007 — 4:35 pm
AZ Appraiser says:
Ryan is correct IMO. I still don’t understand how you all think the appraisal board is being corrupt or how you would think that they are trying to protect appraisers. They aren’t that motivated. If you have ever been to a meeting you would understand this. They are inundated with complaints on appraisals from homeowners regarding “low appraisals” by homeowners who don’t even know what an appraisal is and where the homeowner isn’t even the appraiser’s client, the lender is (I have been sued three times for this very thing and of course it’s been dismissed every time). An appraisal is an opinion, if you don’t like it you can get another one. They are also inundated with legitimate complaints about appraiser puppy mills and flat out fraudulent appraisals. Even more so, they are inundated with bureaucracy, every complaint, no matter how frivolous has to be heard and followed up on and that is why I think the action was taken against Zillow. From what I hear, and it’s only rumor, two people used Zillow to price the sale of their homes and as a result left a lot of money on the table. They are both currently suing Zillow and the complaints to the appraisal board and the ADRE are just the lawyers’ due process in representing the cases. The appraisal board works very hard for absolutely no thanks. They are doing their best though at improving the system with all the new legislation they are pushing through. Check the board site for further details if you are interested.
Just read through the meeting minutes for yourself, it’s all concerning complaints and licensing, not where the industry is going and how to protect it…
http://www.appraisal.state.az.us/meetings/0706.pdf BTW, this is old news, the board originally issued the letter to Zillow in July of last year.
April 19, 2007 — 3:38 pm
Jeff Kempe says:
Good heavens this is going on a long time. And I just don’t get it.
Ryan and AZ Appraiser: Fatuous decisions made by decent, nice, wonderful, hardworking, underappreciated people remain fatuous decisions. The c & d letter sent to Zillow makes the board — and, with respect, you — look at the very least petty, and probably just silly, a little like the flea that jumps on the back of an elephant with rape on its mind.
Because of a few complaints, because appraisers are apparently assumed incapable of parrying a “But Zillow says…” with “Read their disclaimer…” — actually if you copy that disclaimer and hand it to annoying people you’d never have to say anything — the board has set out to deprive five million people of a very popular web site.
Suggestion: Use Zillow as a platform to show how much smarter you are than an algorithm. We’ll all be better off…
April 19, 2007 — 4:43 pm
Greg Swann says:
> Suggestion: Use Zillow as a platform to show how much smarter you are than an algorithm.
This is my argument to Realtors. When a prospective client brings up Zillow, you should rejoice. It’s your opportunity to sell the value of your expertise.
April 19, 2007 — 4:48 pm
Ryan Bailey says:
I also have a suggestion for Realtors to get more business if they want it. This may or may not work, I’m not sure. If you read what I posted on April 18th, 2007 1:58 pm you will find that Loan Officers and Mortgage Brokers often need someone to “ballpark” properties for them to see if a certain loan scenario will work. If you would volunteer to help out the Loan Officer/Mortgage Broker it would be a great way to build your relationship with them and show your expertise. I have great relationships with many mortgage brokers and as a result get lots of referrals for PMI removal, divorce appraisals, estate work and even a real estate listing or two…Just an idea… The need is definitely out their! It looks like we all agree that Zillow may have a few short comings.
April 21, 2007 — 10:00 am
Ryan Bailey says:
Another article….
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0422biz-zillow0422.html
I know Zillow does not offer appraisals, but I love the last line and quote in the article, “The Board of Appraisal ought to have more important things to worry about other than online appraisals, Thompson said.”
Hmm…
Also, Greg, it’s good to see that at least someone is reading the pending legislation…
April 23, 2007 — 10:29 am
Doug Trudeau says:
Greg,
Great article. Knowing the Zestimate can be off by thousands of dollars, how many Realtors check Zillow to see what their clients are seeing to prepare for objections?
April 25, 2007 — 5:54 pm
Doug Trudeau says:
Gregg,
Thanks again. Gave you lots of praise in my blog. You got me thinking and helped me reevaluate my opinion.
April 25, 2007 — 9:16 pm
Greg Swann says:
> Knowing the Zestimate can be off by thousands of dollars, how many Realtors check Zillow to see what their clients are seeing to prepare for objections?
FWIW, I never look, and I have never had it come up with a client. The general question — what do you think about Zillow? — but never a “Look at this!” I’m looking forward to my first, actually.
Your blog is gorgeous, Doug. Every new TomatoBlog I see is prettier than the last.
April 25, 2007 — 9:59 pm
Doug Trudeau says:
Gregg,
I drew comment from David G from Zillow on by blog. Care to comment on it on my site and transfer it to yours?
April 27, 2007 — 10:10 am
Louisville Properties says:
I could’nt agree more. This is absolutely Ridiculous. I’m anxious to see how it will all “PLAY” out.
LouisvilleProperties
April 29, 2007 — 12:14 pm