Had a nice conversation with an agent on the east coast recently who’s a world class buyer’s agent. He has his own site that sending roughly 7-8,000 leads his way each year. From those he picks the cherriest of the cherry, giving the rest to his assistant. He sells anything from a $100k place to cool houses whose price tags require a couple commas. I got the impression most of his stuff is $400k and above, though not much above, at least as an average.
Anyway, the guy’s wicked smart, knows what he’s doin’ backwards and forwards, and does very, very well. He expected to be at roughly 70 closed sides by the end of the year. Again, his website spits out leads like Grandma used to make muffins.
Talking with agents like him is a treat, mainly cuz they’re not only good, and work hard, but they get it. Big time smart.
I asked him why he’d never pursued being a dominant lister.
I asked cuz he’s such a natural, he’d kill. Agents like him can leverage the combination of their superior online skills and agent experience into a tremendous pay raise while keeping the hours level or even reducing them if preferred. For instance, my guess is Russell Shaw, who’ll probably do (my estimate, not his) 5-700 sides this year, works 30-50 hours weekly. Not sure how those sales fall into listing/buyer sides, but I’d wager more than a six pack of Dr. Pepper that 70% of ’em or more are listing sides. I’m sure he’ll correct me if I’m mistaken. 🙂
Back to the east coast guy.
He’s been at this for a decade or so with stellar results. That’s a lotta sales. A buncha homeowners who’re in their homes due to his efforts. They like him, and view him as an experienced, knowledgeable pro. Geez, I dunno, given a built-in database of roughly 500-700 satisfied homeowners, one might wonder if marketing your equally cool listing prowess might have some traction.
Just sayin’.
Let’s say it’s just 500 or so. He already ‘touches’ them with emails once or twice yearly, though it’s generic in nature. According to him, he lists about 10-15 homes yearly by accident. Hhmmm. I’m open for help on this, but I contend that if I had 500 people locally to whom I’d sold homes, who were happy with my service, I’d do everything humanly possible to ensure I was the guy they called when it was time to sell.
Yet from what I can tell, most buyer-agents appear to pass on this. When asked why he’d never gone after these satisfied clients, he said it was cuz he simply doesn’t have the time, as closing so many sides (about 70 this year) with just one assistant is pretty time consuming all by itself. True enough.
This guy, IMHO, is his area’s Russell Shaw in the making.
No hyperbole whatsoever. Think about it. About 25% of his database — 125 homeowners — bought before 2003. Given the cartoonish appreciation from which they benefitted (even after the correction), combined with some of the killer good deals available today, I gotta think maybe 10% would be at least considering a move today. That’s 12-13 listings right there — or somewhere just short of $5 Million in immediately volume — not counting the homes they bought from him after theirs sold.
Geez, Louise, Myrtle — what am I missing here?
He’s now listed about a dozen homes on purpose, plus the other 10-15 he ‘runs into’ as he says. That’s 22-27 listings — all either by happenstance, or under the radar, private database type marketing. Imagine how he could then market to the remaining 375 homeowners in his database. Think maybe a tad over 3% of ’em might be ready to make a move? That’s another 10-12 listings. We’re up to at least 30 now.
Works for me. Setting his already superb buyer lead generation track record aside, how many more or less ‘organic’ buyers are gonna emanate from 30 listings? Also, those listings will always generate other listings. That’s just the way it works.
Since he knows what it takes to be a successful buyer-agent, he can train agents under him to do most of that work now. Furthermore, he can probably pay them less than a 50% split, as all they hafta do is show up to work each day to get the leads he’s been generating for over a decade. He already generates more leads than he could possibly use. They’ll earn more workin’ for him than gettin’ higher splits elsewhere.
If he then begins to nurture his reputation as a prolific lister — the kind who, you know. sells his listings — he can begin marketing in earnest around his current and ever growing listing inventory — and elsewhere. Hell, he’s already proven he’s an expert in generating leads online. He just needs to redirect some of that knowhow to the listing side.
The main thing, is that he’s not startin’ from scratch. He’s starting with 500 satisfied clients who already respect his expertise. It’s my personal opinion that if he does these things in earnest for a year or so, he’ll end up closing more listing sides per year than he’s currently closing on the buy side. Once he exits the time-suck life of the buyer-agent, he can spend that time to list far more homes than he’s sold — and in the same work week, more or less.
In fact, by becoming a truly prolific and effective listing agent, it’s my prediction his operation will end up with more buyer sides than he’s ever experienced.
No doubt you’re thinkin’ “what the hell, Jeff, this ain’t anything new under the sun” — yep, pretty much. Then tell me, why aren’t highly successful buyer-agents doin’ this all over the country?
I realize being a lister isn’t for everyone. Not everyone wants to walk through that door, and frankly, if as a buyer-agent you’re already doin’ low to mid six figures, I get it. You’re already showin’ folks how it’s done.
But if more than doubling your income appeals to you, and you match the profile of this guy, what’re ya waitin’ for?
If you were this guy, what would you do?
Tina Larsen says:
Who is this guy, Jeff? I’d like to see his website. 🙂
August 12, 2010 — 4:15 pm
Mark Brian says:
If he enjoys what he is doing why change? Money is not everything.
August 12, 2010 — 4:16 pm
Jeff Brown says:
Not likely. 🙂
August 12, 2010 — 4:20 pm
Jeff Brown says:
Hey Mark — Great point. Maybe I shoulda included this in the post. 🙂
>I realize being a lister isn’t for everyone. Not everyone wants to walk through that door, and frankly, if as a buyer-agent you’re already doin’ low to mid six figures, I get it. You’re already showin’ folks how it’s done.
August 12, 2010 — 4:22 pm
Keith Lutz says:
I totally agree. If he is not going to do it for him, then do it for his children (even if he does not have any now). It is far better to get a system of referrals going, where he can collect money for life. Let’s face it, as a buyers agent you can only work with 10 – 15 buyers a month (that is a pipe dream number, if you ask me), but you work your a$$ off for that. What happens if he is laid up in a hospital for a period of time?
August 12, 2010 — 6:39 pm
Greg Swann says:
> sending roughly 7-8,000 leads his way each year
Here’s my question: If he’s converting only 1 out of 100, why do you call them leads? Those aren’t potential clients, they’re names — some of them with working phone numbers.
If you hear from 8,000 people a year, that’s 22 a day, every day, including Christmas. It’s got to take at least a half-hour per each one to connect, forge a relationship, gather details, set up searches, isolate likely properties and then decide whether or not to proceed. That’s eleven hours a day, eleven of the best money-making hours of the day.
This doesn’t make any sense to me, Jeff. If I had to talk to 22 new people a day, I would shoot myself before the end of the first day — especially if I knew I had to do that five days in a row to get to a paycheck.
Whatever. My thinking is they’re not leads. They’re obligatory sign-ups to an IDX system.
I’m not even dealing with the larger question, not alone because I think almost all listers are dipshits right now.
August 12, 2010 — 7:27 pm
Jeff Brown says:
He’s doin’ what he’s doin’, Greg. 70 closed sides is 70 closed sides. I don’t know what he does to pick the cherries, but I know the results are real. The guy flat closes deals. He, like you, understands online marketing. You guys do it completely differently, but from where I stand, he doesn’t work 80 hour weeks, and probably makes well over half a mil a year.
Works for me. Bottom line? He’s skinnin’ cats big time.
You do bring up a point though about how he’s gathering the cherries. I will take that as my next task, and report back.
As far as listers being dipshits, just call me Captain DipShit — BawldGuy Division.
August 12, 2010 — 8:39 pm
Greg Swann says:
> He’s doin’ what he’s doin’
Check. Each man to his own saints. I may write about this, because it strikes me as being upside down.
As for listers being dipshits, I am just about out of patience. The dispshits whose listings I’m showing personify the idea of economic waste: They do nothing to bring their sellers better, faster money. The latest trend is off-loading their in-house clerical work to the buyer’s agents, doubling and tripling the time it takes to submit an offer. And then, the next day, I will walk up to five or ten $200,000 houses, each one of which is “secured” by a $20 lockbox — so I get to hound the dipshit lister for the combination. That’s not a big hassle, though: They all use the same dipshit combos over and over again.
Cathleen works with sellers. She likes it and she’s good at it. I work with a lot of buyers, and I torque the sellers every way I can think of. They hired incompetent clerks to be their listing agents, and, lacking anything like intelligent representation, they are my natural prey.
For now, at least, buying REOs is like ninth-inning baseball — all strategy. I’m getting good at it, and I like it. We’re converting 50% of everyone we hear from, and quite a few of those turn into repeats. We’ll finish the year right at 40 closed transactions, perhaps a little better. The down side is that we’re writing two contracts, on average, for every closing, so easy is it for houses to fall apart right now. The upside is that we spend almost nothing on marketing, and we waste no time tracking down unmotivated form-addicts.
Meanwhile, here is a page showing off some of the best of the houses I’m seeing:
http://bloodhoundrealty.com/Avondale_rental-home_investment_possibilities/
Unlike marketing photos, these are warts-and-all pix for investors. But I’m not even bothering to take photos of the houses we know cannot work. So these are better-than-average crap houses. In every case, $2 of effort by the lister would result in an extra $5 of net payoff for the seller, but that money goes to my clients instead. Why? Because most listers are dipshits, that’s why. 😉
August 13, 2010 — 7:41 am
jeffrey gordon says:
Hey guys, interesting conversation, especially since I have studied some of the the folks who have built very successful teams systems that usually end up very focused on buyer side vs listing side. It seems to me a lot of these team leaders started out focused on listings since that is what everyone was always taught as the way to go.
Signing up buyer prospects is probably a lot easier/faster than getting a listing and therefore would seem to lend itself to team operations and therefore much higher volumes possible than a person working by themselves with one assistant.
I have to agree with Greg, my experience with generating very low quality “leads” to the tune of 40-60 per week was not much fun at all, if they are IDX or PPC type sign ups for filling out a form I came to find them of little value, on the other hand if they are calling me then we are talking about something I would get excited about–a good salesperson should be converting phone or face to face lead over 50% in my opinion, a 1 in a 100 rate would have me checking the truck driving schools ads!
I suspect that a good system can be built for either listing or selling that would allow the leader to control their hours if they didnt want to work 24/7, from my vantage point of watching some pretty good agents of both types where there is a will there is a way to create the solution.
Dipshits huh, care to elaborate Greg? 🙂
jeffrey gordon
August 12, 2010 — 8:55 pm
Jeff Brown says:
I have a idear. Let’s round up all the agents and/or teams who close a minimum of 500 sides or more a year.
Then let’s ask them for a show of hands, how many of you close the vast majority of your sides as buyer-agents? Betcha there won’t be many hands in the air.
August 12, 2010 — 9:40 pm
Jeff Brown says:
By the way, Jeffrey, Greg’s just havin’ fun with me on the dipshit side. Though I will tell ya for sure, there’s no doubt in my mind his opinion of most of the listing agents with whom he does business is indeed that they’re dipshits. 🙂
August 12, 2010 — 9:45 pm
jeffrey gordon says:
Hi Jeff, how you doing?
My exposure was to the folks who were following Craig Proctors system and as I recall (it has been a few years now) the majority of them were focused on the buy side model. As i recall 200s sides annually might be a lot more realistic volume–I suspect the number of folks doing 500 sides a years is a very small select group!
I will see if I can get a call in to one of Proctors folks and see what their impressions are about list vs buy.
Careful with Greg, his publishing output in deep philosophical content is truly amazing–does he have a couple of clones who do the deep thinking and reading while he closes deals?
You guys could both be big time writers with little effort beyond what you are already putting out.
I am humbled each day getting to share your thoughts, thanks to both of you!
Jeffrey
btw google picked up my comment here in less than 2 hours, that is a first!
August 12, 2010 — 11:34 pm
Jeff Brown says:
There are more of those 500+ sides a year agents/teams than you might think. For instance, I was mildly surprised to learn Russell Shaw, who’ll probably do far more than 500 this year is 25th in the country. 25th?!
You do make my point though, that with the best buyer-agent oriented teams, their potential simply cannot compete with listing oriented counterparts for pure production. It simply can’t be done physically. Plus, listing machines who decide to hire buyer specialists, not only have the advantage of their own organic listing generators, but those leads are, for the most part, of much higher quality.
About Greg — Ya gotta understand something. The guy is a working machine. It’s my contention, and I’m not kidding here, that he puts in more quality work hours a week than any 4-5 real estate agents chosen randomly. Don’t know how he does it, except to say he has to really like much of what he’s doing — really like it.
August 13, 2010 — 6:40 am
Jim Klein says:
“not alone because I think almost all listers are dipshits right now.”
Transactionally, this implies that the buyers aren’t. And that in turn belies the claim, “Those aren’t potential clients, they’re names — some of them with working phone numbers.” Further, I’d say the guy’s success proves this.
Being a simpleton, I’m with Jeff here. Skinning a cat is skinning a cat.
August 13, 2010 — 7:19 am
Jeff Brown says:
>So these are better-than-average crap houses.
Made my Friday morning.
>The upside is that we spend almost nothing on marketing…
That’s also my case, which is a happy change from years past. It’s shameful how much money I’ve wasted on ‘expert’ marketers. These year I’ll spend roughly a dime in marketing for every dollar of revenue.
August 13, 2010 — 7:56 am
Sean Purcell says:
Jesus Christ there’s a complete tutorial here in the comments alone. Damn good post Jeff… as usual.
August 13, 2010 — 9:33 am
jeffrey gordon says:
jeff and greg,
you guys rock!
thanks for reminding me that this business is based on
brilliance and lots of persistence!
Greg, you are my mentor for a startup real estate consulting business, right behind the bawld guy.
thanks so much for you both laying it all out there,
I would love to go to battle with the both of you!
Jeffrey Gordon
August 17, 2010 — 8:02 am